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Mr. Cash: Will the Minister answer a very simple question? Does he endorse the statement on decommissioning that the Taoiseach made the other day and that has been mentioned several times in this debate? Yes or no?

Mr. Ingram: The Taoiseach speaks for himself, and the hon. Gentleman should read what he said both in that interview and in the Dail. The Taoiseach speaks for himself, and we do not speak for the Irish Government. We say that both processes must move forward. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said both in her opening remarks and in response to similar interventions, there are two strands to the process--decommissioning and the Executive. They must happen; otherwise, we shall not have continuation of the Good Friday agreement. That is the reality. It is the complex environment in which we operate, and the matter to which we are trying to seek agreement.

The matter rests not only with the Government, or with the two Governments, but with all the parties who signed up to the Belfast agreement. No one said that the process would be an easy one or that it was a matter simply of reaching agreement and, the day after, of everything falling automatically into place. If Opposition Members think that that is how peace processes work, they have not been living in this century or understood the lessons of history.

Mr. Wilshire: I can well understand why the hon. Gentleman does not want to speak for the Republic's Government, but will he speak for the British Government? Will he tell us, please, whether the British Government will allow into the Northern Ireland Executive armed terrorists before they have started decommissioning? Will the Government sanction such entry, or will they not?

Mr. Ingram: The Secretary of State already answered that question, and there is no point in my trying to find different words simply to repeat what she said.

I want to quote from a letter to the Leader of the Opposition that was written on 6 January 1998 by the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire). He wrote:

"I had absolutely no doubt that its 'Peace Process' was doomed to failure and that the Talks were going nowhere."

Within months of that letter being written, we had the Belfast agreement and had made substantial progress, both

22 Feb 1999 : Column 152

in the referendum and in the commitment of the parties to take the process forward. Progress continued right up to December and beyond it, into the new year.

I do not want to enter into debate with the hon. Member for Spelthorne as his speech was over the top, and I tend to ignore such speeches. However, his speech was deeply offensive to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and to other Labour Members who are trying to move the process forward. We are not appeasers of terrorism--which is the most outrageous statement to make about any right hon. or hon. Member. The Government--like previous Governments--have been resolute against terrorism. That is why we have committed so many brave men and women--in the RUC and in the armed forces--to defend the democracy that we want to uphold in Northern Ireland. We shall continue to do so.

I do not want to get involved in a debate with the hon. Member for Spelthorne, as the judgment that he demonstrated in his letter to the Leader of the Opposition shows that his opinions, which may be strong ones, are misplaced.

Mr. Hunter: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Ingram: I shall not constantly give way. The hon. Gentleman had the opportunity to make a speech in the debate but has only intervened in the speeches of other hon. Members. He could have collected his thought processes and made a speech, but--[Interruption.] Some hon. Members say that he could not have done that, but I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. He decided not to make a speech.

We have already seen some decommissioning. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, the LVF has decommissioned weapons through the independent commission. We can only hope that that action will be followed by others.

Decommissioning not only can happen, it must happen, and I am certain that it will happen with the determination and commitment of those who hold illegal weapons in Northern Ireland. The question is no longer whether there will be decommissioning, but when terrorist and paramilitary groups will start the process. The sooner they do, the better it will be for everyone. The order provides a framework for the process to be taken forward and I commend it to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 (Amnesty Period) Order 1999, which was laid before this House on 1st February, be approved.

DELEGATED LEGISLATION

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),

International Immunities and Privileges

That the draft Diplomatic Privileges (British Nationals) Order 1999, which was laid before this House on 28th January, be approved.--[Mr. Betts.]

Question agreed to.

22 Feb 1999 : Column 153

Badgers

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mr. Betts.]

11.51 pm

Charlotte Atkins (Staffordshire, Moorlands): In May 1997, just days after I was elected, a planned cull of badgers in my constituency was stopped. Understandably, that caused much anxiety among local farmers and ensured that badgers and bovine tuberculosis quickly became a key priority for me as a new Member of Parliament. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister for having received a delegation of six farmers from my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Mrs. Dean), with whom I share the debate. He also took time to visit the farm of Mr. George Richardson at Ilam in my constituency to discuss the problems that badgers posed in his environment. Sadly, I have learnt since then that Mr. Richardson's farm has gone down with TB. On that farm the Minister saw how difficult it is for farmers to follow Government advice on keeping badgers and cattle apart.

Over the past decade the number of cases of TB in cattle has risen steadily. Although the west country is the traditional stronghold of the disease, it is spreading rapidly in Staffordshire, particularly along the border with Derbyshire. During 1998 there were 30 confirmed TB herd breakdowns in Staffordshire, but the most worrying fact is the rate of increase of TB incidence, at around 30 per cent. year on year. The other main concern is the virulent strain of TB that seems to be prevalent in Staffordshire.

Following the Krebs report, the sum of evidence strongly supports the view that badgers are a cause of bovine TB outbreaks. However, due to the previous Government's failure to grasp the nettle there has been no proper experimental study to enable firm conclusions to be drawn about the effectiveness of badger culling and other methods of controlling the disease, so I strongly support the Government's decision to implement the culling trial. We must establish whether the culling of badgers influences bovine TB cases and which culling strategy is the most effective. I was disappointed that, given the spread of the disease in Staffordshire, the area was not declared a hot spot. That would have allowed careful examination of the worrying local situation.

There is frustration in my constituency that nothing seems to have happened locally since the cull was stopped in May 1997. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister is acutely aware of the hardship and real trauma caused by TB breakdown, having met some of my local farmers. He should be congratulated for increasing compensation to the full market value of infected cattle. Farmers in my area have told me how grateful they are for the increased compensation, although, as my hon. Friend will recognise, those facing prolonged periods of shutdown suffer substantial additional losses. The National Farmers Union has calculated that the new compensation arrangements meet only 16 per cent. of the costs of the breakdown. I quote the figure to indicate how desperate farmers become at the prospect of a herd breakdown.

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I would like to read a short letter that I received last week from Christine Chester, a dairy farmer from Foxt in my constituency. She wrote:

"Dear Charlotte, As from yesterday we have become another statistic in the Tuberculosis in cattle story. We have previously had over 40 years clear of TB in a closed herd, i.e. no bought in cattle. What have we done to deserve this? I am old enough to remember the cost and effort of clearing the country of TB in cattle in the 1950s-60s. I never thought we should have to go through it all again."

I am concerned about the way in which some farmers and wildlife trusts have reacted to the problem of badgers. They should be working together, rather than fighting each other. My biggest fear is that farmers will take the law into their own hands. It has been reported to me that poisoning is going on around the Wetton area in my constituency. It has been said that potatoes have been injected with strychnine for badgers to pick up. No one wants that to happen. Most farmers are caring about their animals. There is a real concern that badger numbers are getting out of control. Their main predator now is the car, which kills twenty times the number that the Government propose to cull.

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