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The Prime Minister: I largely agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman. This is a major debate about the future of our country, and I have set out the Government's position by making a statement to the House. I shall, of course, carry on stating why I believe our position to be in the national interest. The right hon. and learned Gentleman and I would share a view on one central point: to be pro-British, one does not need to be anti-European. We can be both, and, in a modern world, we should be.
Mr. Giles Radice (North Durham): Does my right hon. Friend accept that his statement represents a major step forward? Not only did he set out practical preparations that the country must take, but he made it clear that, provided the economic circumstances are right, it is the Government's intention to join. This is the first time that the Government have said that so clearly. Does he agree that the time has come for a great national debate to inform the British people about the euro, and that the British Government must lead the debate?
The Prime Minister: Of course, my statement and its aftermath are part of the national debate. It is important
that we have set out the economic circumstances that would make joining in our national interest. We have set those circumstances out clearly and we have signalled the Government's direction. We have set out the conditions clearly, and that is the right position to take.
Sir Edward Heath (Old Bexley and Sidcup): The Prime Minister has been absolutely right in everything that he has said today. I welcome that, although I would have welcomed it even more if he had said it last June when the whole process began.
We risk what we suffered before for 22 years when we had no influence whatever in the policies being followed by what is now the European Union. We cannot afford to take that risk again. I urge that preparations should be made as speedily as possible. We have heard many pseudo-arguments, all of them dominated by one economic fact throughout the history of the world. That fact is this: no single market in the world has more than one currency. We cannot carry on successfully in a single market if we go for multiple currencies. That simply is not feasible. The rest of Europe knows that perfectly well, and the United States knows it too. Where would the US be if it had had more than one currency? There is no argument against that point, and I hope that the Prime Minister will act as speedily as is practically possible.
The Prime Minister:
It is important to realise that a single currency in a single market can bring benefits in terms of jobs and investment in industry. That is why we have set out our direction today. There must be settled and sustainable economic convergence, but the direction needed to be set out, and it has been.
Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield):
Will the Prime Minister make it clear when the information published by the Government is sent out that every elector will be told that, if Britain is a member of the single currency, he or she will lose the right to elect or to remove on polling day those who make the economic decisions that affect our lives? Will he also point out that, under the Maastricht treaty, he himself would be in breach of the law if he tried to influence the decisions of the central bank? Is he aware that democracy is held by many people, including me, to be a national interest? Is he also aware that, on this matter, there are divisions in all parties and there will be a free vote in the House? Will he give us an assurance that the Cabinet will have the same right to freedom that was made available in 1975 during the previous referendum campaign?
The Prime Minister:
It is interesting to hear whatI sometimes call the Thatcher-Portillo-Benn axis. I understand why my right hon. Friend holds that view very strongly indeed, but he must understand that there are those of us who are equally in favour of people having their say, which is why we will have the referendum. We have pledged that the final decision will be that of the British people. Pooling our sovereignty in this way, if it is in the national economic interest, better for British jobs, investment and industry and enhances British influence and standing in the world, is the right thing for Britain to do. We should have the campaign on the basis that people on either side of the argument are honourably intentioned
Sir Michael Spicer (West Worcestershire):
As part of the Prime Minister's changeover plan, has he turned his mind to the collapsing value of the euro? In forcing convergence and complying with the Maastricht treaty, is it his plan to shadow the euro downwards? If so, what will that mean for his inflation target?
The Prime Minister:
That is not our policy. The hon. Gentleman and, I am afraid, the majority of Conservative Members want the euro to fail. That is all that they have left--[Interruption.] Literally, that is all that they have left to hope for: that the whole thing collapses. If the euro collapsed, even if we were out of it, it would be a disaster for this country. He and other Conservative Members should get into the real world today.
Mr. Robert Sheldon (Ashton-under-Lyne):
While I welcome this most important step in producing a changeover plan, is my right hon. Friend aware that whether we join the euro is the one crucial decision to be taken during the lifetime of this Government? Is he aware that the sooner we make that firm commitment to join, even without setting a date, the more seriously we will be taken by our partners in Europe and the more fully we will be able to participate in the crucial decisions that lie ahead?
The Prime Minister:
The conditions are important too. As I said, this is an economic union and conditions relating to economic convergence and to the five tests that the Chancellor set out, including those relating to economic reform, are important for monetary union to work in this country's national interest. So the direction is clear, but those conditions have to remain in place and be satisfied because that also is in the national economic interest.
Mr. Michael Heseltine (Henley):
Would the Prime Minister recognise that this country, which has proudly defended its sovereignty for 1,000 years, has been told by every Conservative Prime Minister since the late Lord Stockton that we would enhance that sovereignty and our power and influence by drawing closer to Europe? Some of us still believe what we were told and followed the House of Commons whipping procedure at that time.
Will the Prime Minister recognise that his statement--which is a marked step forward in the intention of the Government to join a successful single currency--stripped of its party political rhetoric will be widely welcomed in areas of society way beyond his political party? With that in mind and given that the conditions entrenched in his statement have to be fulfilled before a successful application is made, will he recognise that that will be possible only if there is an all-party grouping to lead public opinion on the matter? Above all else, will he give the House a categorical assurance that he will lead that all-party alignment?
The Prime Minister:
If I were a Conservative Member, I should reflect on what a former Deputy Prime
Mr. Bill Rammell (Harlow):
I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend's statement. Does he agree that, if we follow the advice of the Conservative party and stay out of the single currency for 10 years, not only shall we be repeating the mistakes of British history for the past 50 years, but it would represent an abdication of political leadership? Does he also agree that, if we believe that a strong single currency is in Britain's interests, striving to meet the five economic criteria set by the Chancellor should be an explicit aim of Government policy?
The Prime Minister:
The Chancellor has already made it clear that we want to meet those tests. My hon. Friend is right about the 10 years: the two justifiable positions are to rule out joining a single currency for ever, as a matter of principle, or to set out the economic tests necessary to make joining in the national interest. The Leader of the Opposition must recognise that it is genuinely absurd to rule out joining for 10 years, for that would mean that we had absolutely no influence on decision making, but we would still have to do all the things later that we are setting out today. It is far better to make the test our national conditions and do our best to meet them.
Sir Archie Hamilton (Epsom and Ewell):
For once, I find myself agreeing with the Prime Minister: it cannot be right for us to join the euro until we have seen convergence in the economic cycles of our economy and that of the Europeans, nor can it be right to join until we have seen the liberalisation of labour and capital markets on the continent. That will take years--so why does the Prime Minister not join my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition in a policy that rules out joining for this Parliament and the next?
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