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Mr. Hughes: It is perfectly proper to have a debate on the subject. Personally, I would countenance such a proposal only if the electors, who are the residents, agreed to it by ballot. In my borough, I would countenance some business votes only if the people of Southwark voted for that to be the structure of their council. Ideally, the whole of this debate should have taken place in the context of a debate about local government, so that we could first sort out the rules by which local government is structured before considering specific councils.
Mr. McDonnell: On that logic, if the electorate of the hon. Gentleman's constituency were willing to give a vote to business for his parliamentary election, would he support that? That is the logic of the path down which he is going. We cannot differentiate between elections. Either we have democracy at the local, regional, national and European levels or we do not have it at all. As soon as we trespass on the right of individuals to have a say via the ballot box, we undermine the whole principle and, eventually, the practice.
Mr. Hughes: We in Parliament should decide about elections to Parliament. I have no doubt at all that the House will retain the view that the only people with the right to vote for Members of Parliament are those who vote on the basis of residence. The debate about whether we should allow business a vote in local elections should start in Parliament, and if Parliament here thought that a sensible option, as some countries do, we could allow it to be implemented. I am not arguing that it is my preferred model, but if the residents of the City of London want a majority resident vote with a minority business vote, I am not prepared to say that they should not be allowed to have it.
Mr. McDonnell: If the majority of the hon. Gentleman's constituents agreed to businesses being able to vote for or against his being elected to Parliament, would he support that? That is the ultimate logic of what he is saying.
In business districts elsewhere, for example in the United States, the system is based not on a business vote, but on an overarching democracy in the city, allowing businesses, largely in an administrative or advisory role, to have some involvement in their area. The ultimate responsibility lies with the overarching authority; and the new strategic body for London will be such an authority.
Mr. Hughes:
There is a difference between deciding how councillors are elected, which could reasonably be left in part to local determination, and deciding how
Let me try to link that to the hon. Gentleman's second point. I am not trying to defend the propositions in the Bill. I would not have chosen to start from the Bill; nor do I think that, in logic, it is easy to persuade people to vote for the Bill. However, on the issue of how to arrange business votes, there might be a logical argument in favour of giving certain powers, influence over and contributions to decision making to business, but within a remit that is ultimately controlled only by those who are residential electors. That is a model used in other parts of the world.
Mr. Benn:
To put it crudely, in constituencies or boroughs where there is a Conservative majority, the majority of electors would see the case for a business vote to keep that seat or that council Conservative; but in Labour or Liberal areas, there would be no such advantage, so the case would be rejected. The result would be a two-tier system in which Conservative areas backed by business were always Conservative, but other areas were not. The hon. Gentleman's reading of his speech is taking him back to a Liberal position that has not been seen since the Whigs disappeared.
Mr. Hughes:
I am not taking the Liberal Democrats back to any such position. I understand the right hon. Gentleman's points, which is why I said that business votes should be contemplated only if they have first been discussed by Parliament in the context of local government; and only if Parliament agrees the framework should they be agreed to, for exactly the reasons the right hon. Gentleman cites. I am not saying that the proposition is one that is, in logic or in democracy, defensible. However, given the starting point of this Bill, the proposition to allow other than single traders or partners to have a vote is better than keeping the current system. That is all that the Bill is about.
Mr. Peter Bradley (The Wrekin):
The trend of the hon. Gentleman's thinking is extremely worrying, and it is greatly to his advantage that none of his Liberal Democrat colleagues are present to hear him--I hope that they do not read Hansard tomorrow. He suggests that it would be open to a majority of residents in a borough or a constituency to vote to dilute the value of their own democratic vote by ceding part of it to the business community, but what about the minority of residents who might vote against such a proposition? Do the majority have the right to undermine the value of their vote and their democratic rights?
Mr. Hughes:
I think that I have dealt with that argument by pointing out that the Bill is here, being debated, because it is Parliament that has to decide such matters; Parliament has to set the framework and decide what is acceptable. Under our constitution, lacking a bill of rights or a written constitution, Members of Parliament are the only people who can ensure that the rights of
Mr. Bradley:
To complete the circle: when we started, my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell) was trying to identify the hon. Gentleman's own position on the concept that he has unveiled to us. If he had the vote in his borough or constituency, would he vote for such a proposition? Would he cast his vote in favour of enfranchising the business community, or against it?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
Order. We should confine our arguments to the subject of the Bill and not stray beyond the boundaries of the City of London.
Mr. Hughes:
To answer the question put by the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Bradley), I would support the retention of the status quo, in which only residents should vote. The only argument that I would make in strong support of the Bill is that, given where we start from, it is better that there is a slightly wider electoral base than currently exists. That is the only proposition that can be advanced if the Bill is the only measure put before us and if it represents one inch of movement in the right direction. However, I hope that I have made it clear that, if the City is not bolder than is shown in the Bill, it will be in trouble before long.
Mr. McDonnell:
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's generosity in giving way. I have not tried to pin him down before, but I fear that I must do so now. The Bill would clearly extend and confirm the right of the business vote, which goes against every tradition of the hon. Gentleman's party since its foundation in the philosophy of liberalism and individualism. Does he support the Bill?
I believe that the Bill is unamendable and that we may well ask for another Bill, one that can be properly debated and discussed. The element--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Gentleman is making speeches during his interventions. Interventions should be brief.
Mr. Hughes:
I shall answer the hon. Gentleman's question and then endeavour not to give way again, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I clearly expressed my view during the Committee stage on the Floor of the House of the Greater London Authority Bill. My personal view is that the Bill does not represent sufficiently adequate reform; the City should go away and come back with a different Bill, because the current one does not meet the test of democracy. However, the Bill is here and the question we have to ask is whether or not it is amendable in Committee, if it gets that far. I shall not be a member of the Committee; nor will the hon. Gentleman.
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