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1.28 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. John Hutton): The whole House has benefited from an extremely well-informed debate, and we have heard distinguished speeches, including one from a former Minister, the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean), and several from Labour Members. Those speeches reflect the strong feelings of hon. Members about child protection. The debate has also tapped into the direct experience of Members in coming to terms with the problem.
I understand entirely some of the concerns raised on both sides of the House during the debate, and I hope to dispel some of them. If any outstanding issues of concern remain after I have spoken, I hope to deal with them further in the Standing Committee. The hon. Members for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) and for Taunton
(Jackie Ballard) and my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard) welcomed the Bill, but expressed some concerns for civil liberties. It would not be appropriate to go into detail during a Second Reading debate, but I shall address those concerns in the Standing Committee. If the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire is fortunate enough to be a member of that Committee, I look forward to discussing those matters with him.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle- under-Lyme (Mrs. Golding), in another good speech, emphasised the importance of getting this legislation through and getting it right. She has played a huge role in developing better safeguards for vulnerable children, and I am pleased to pay tribute to the work that she has done in the House.
My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, South (Ms Taylor) spoke strongly and powerfully about her experiences and made a moving contribution to our proceedings.
I am pleased to welcome the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), who strongly supported the Bill and made some constructive suggestions. I am afraid to say that he got one thing wrong--I hope that he will not mind if I try to put him right. He felt that the Bill was inconsistent with the recommendations and work of the interdepartmental working group to which he referred, which is not the case. If he looks a little more closely at paragraph 5(12) of its recommendations--in particular, the second bullet point--I hope that he will be reassured that the Bill is entirely consistent with what that group says.
Mr. Hammond:
I apologise if I have misinterpreted the group's views. I have relied on the Library research paper on the Bill, which states, in paragraph 6 on page 12, that the group said:
My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood (Mrs. Humble), who is experienced in these matters and a distinguished former chair of social services in Lancashire, asked whether foster carers would be included in the provisions of the Bill. I understand that, as drafted, it would include them. Private and voluntary foster carers would be covered by the permissive provisions, but the local authority would be covered by the mandatory aspects.
The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border showed himself in his new and rather surprising colours as a defender of civil liberties. I do not want to disappoint him, but that is not how we have come to see him during our proceedings; but I am happy to see him in that new incarnation and all Labour Members look forward to more contributions in a similar vein. Together with a number of his hon. Friends, including the hon. Members for Poole (Mr. Syms) and for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin), who is never here when I respond to his speeches, which is a shame, he expressed concerns about the basis on which the Bill is proceeding. The right hon. Gentleman
described his concerns about the administrative nature of the list and how it is administered and asked whether it would be better to put it on a purely judicial footing, with a tribunal deciding whether someone should be on the list.
The right hon. Gentleman needs to look carefully at the structure of the Bill. One key aspect is that we are putting the list into a proper statutory framework. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will exercise his functions under the clear wording of the Bill. The appeal tribunal will exercise an appellate function and, on points of law, appeals can ultimately be made to the High Court and beyond. The system will be more transparent. It will be open and, as a result, significantly improved.
Mr. Hutton:
Does the right hon. Gentleman want to intervene about the appeals system?
Mr. Hutton:
In that case, I will not give way.
This is a stronger and better system. We are opening up the decision-making process and putting it on a proper legal basis. Therefore, I hope that Conservative Members will be assured that the appellate system and the structure of the Bill will support proper, independent decision making.
Mr. Paice:
Am I not right in thinking that the Bill provides for the Secretary of State to make the final decision, over and above whatever conclusions the tribunal reaches? I understand that few Secretaries of State are likely to overrule the tribunal; nevertheless, the Bill as drafted could allow that to happen.
Mr. Hutton:
My understanding of the Bill is that that cannot happen. The hon. Gentleman is an experienced former Minister and knows the arrangements for reaching such decisions in Departments. The Bill's purpose is to put the framework on to a proper, open basis, with a proper appeal system and points of law going ultimately to the High Court. That is a significant improvement on existing arrangements. I know that the hon. Gentleman concerned about the quality and independence of decision making. Taken together, the Bill's provisions would significantly enhance the quality of the decision making that will underpin the list that we maintain. I hope that that somewhat reassures him about that fundamental piece of the Bill's architecture.
The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border was concerned about the concept of harm and its definition in the Bill, particularly in the context of misconduct or incompetence. He probably realises that the concept of harm for the purpose of this Bill will have the same meaning as in section 31 of the Children Act 1989. That will confine and define the way in which the term can be interpreted in any future cases. Ultimately, the Secretary of State himself has to be satisfied in the case of misconduct or incompetence that the person involved is unsuitable to work with children. There is a safeguard in the system, and I hope that he is reassured.
The hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire made a characteristically good speech. He correctly noted the need to strike the right balance between civil liberties and child protection. The Government strongly believe that the Bill strikes the right balance. The hon. Gentleman made the good point that employers should receive a prompt response from the Department when someone is referred for consideration against the list. We try to do that by striving to turn round responses to inquiries in five days. We want to ensure that our systems fully reflect the needs of employers. We will certainly continue to do that.
I am glad that the hon. Member for West Dorset is back. Egged on by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, he expressed anxiety about provisional inclusions on the list. It was partly that prompting that led him to conclude that people will go on to the list automatically, and that there will be no discretion and no independent judgment by the Secretary of State. That is not the case. He should examine clause 2(3) in more detail.
Mr. John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West):
In my constituency, a convicted paedophile continues to profess an interest in the welfare of young people. He organises weekends for young people at his home and exhibitions outside. He does not do it for profit and is not part of any organisation. I am advised that nothing in existing law, or in this otherwise admirable Bill, can prevent that sort of thing. Can the Minister confirm that? Can anything be done under the Bill?
Mr. Hutton:
I have no details of the case to which the hon. Gentleman alludes. Social services departments have clear responsibilities under the Children Act 1989 in respect of children and vulnerable children. It is their legal obligation to discharge them. Has he considered raising this with social services locally? If he has, and is not satisfied with the response, I would be willing to receive representations.
Mr. Forth:
The provisional list has troubled several hon. Members. Has the Minister considered whether a problem might arise in respect of someone who remained on the provisional list for a long time? The Bill contains a provision that precludes people on the provisional list from appealing to the tribunal. There could be a serious problem of possible injustice arising from perhaps malicious claims accepted in good faith by the Secretary of State. Once on the provisional list, someone could get stuck there because there is no way out.
"The new system should be voluntary; there should be no requirements on employers to make the checks or submit information to the lists."
Mr. Hutton:
I am grateful for that correction. I hope that, if the hon. Gentleman looks at the report of the interdepartmental working group, the position will be clear.
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