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Sir John Stanley: I am listening carefully to the hon. Lady. Does she agree that, on this occasion, the Chairmen designate of Select Committees were announced by her party before the Select Committees had even met?
Ms Abbott: I am always very careful about what I say on the Floor of the House. I was not present at the meeting of the parliamentary Labour party where that was done. Labour colleagues who were present might want to comment.
I have talked about a concerted effort to make the Whips writ run in the Select Committee. That is wholly improper and undermines the basis on which Select Committees operate. I have talked about an attempt to determine what Select Committees can inquire into. Finally, the Foreign Affairs Committee suffered ad nauseam from people, presumably loyal to their Government, seeking to advance the Government's cause not by engaging in the arguments that the Select Committee is making, but by rubbishing the work of the Select Committee and the individuals who serve on it. Where has it got people? It has meant that two years later individuals are having to account for themselves on the Floor of the House.
Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate):
The hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir J. Stanley) have made clear the effective role of Select Committees under the previous Government.
Before I begin my remarks I want to follow a hare that was set running by the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson). He made a disgraceful allegation that has wide currency in the Scott affair and the arms to Iraq affair. He said that Ministers under the previous Government were prepared to see innocent business men go to prison. That is absolutely and totally untrue. When the defence in a criminal trial have discovery of documents, if those documents are classified, it is the duty of Ministers to sign public interest immunity certificates, in the knowledge that the judge in the case will see the documents and reach a conclusion as to whether they are pertinent to the defence. If they are, they will be given to the defence. I hope that the hon. Gentleman, who is a fair man, does not believe that Ministers for whom I worked--I have direct knowledge of the issue--would have contemplated putting themselves in such a position.
Last Wednesday, when the Foreign Secretary made his latest statement on Sierra Leone, I did not catch Madam Speaker's eye. The right hon. Gentleman challenged Ministers from the previous Government to say that they had not seen early copies of Select Committee reports.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
Order. Madam Speaker has made a ruling that I have reiterated: we should not talk about the leak. It has been mentioned in passing, but we should not talk about it. We should just talk about the motion and the amendment before us.
Mr. Blunt:
I wanted to refer to it in passing, simply to say that under the--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Gentleman should take my advice and deal with the motion. The House knows what to do.
Mr. Blunt:
Under the tenure of the previous Foreign Secretary, a Rolls-Royce Department performed as a Rolls-Royce. It did not stagger from one own goal to the next. The permanent under-secretary was generally happy in the discharge of his duties. There were no rumours of Sir John Coles saying that he would not go before a Committee of the House again to cover up for his ministerial masters after yet another mauling from the Foreign Affairs Committee.
Mr. Illsley:
There have already been two or three references during the debate to the Scott report and the Pergau dam inquiry. How can the hon. Gentleman say that under the previous Government the Foreign Office did not have problems and crises?
Mr. Blunt:
Let us make the comparison. The Foreign Secretary has been in office for as long as his predecessor was. Under his predecessor, the Foreign Office dealt with issues such as the Hong Kong handover, the intergovernmental conference and the Bosnia Dayton accord, to name but three. It did not stagger from one crisis to the next. There were not controversies week after week over foreign affairs.
Why has the conduct of foreign policy changed? Why has the Rolls-Royce of a Department been reduced to an old banger, in the words of the Chairman of the Select Committee? The answer is ministerial leadership. That goes to the heart of the objective of new Labour--to be all things to all men. As soon as he came to office, the Foreign Secretary launched his ethical dimension to foreign policy. The contradictions were immediately and cruelly exposed on exports to Indonesia and on Kashmir. There was no suggestion under the previous Foreign Secretary of a state visit becoming a foreign policy disaster.
Even in opposition, when the right hon. Gentleman addressed a meeting of largely Indian British citizens in Southall he told them that Kashmir was part of India. He was received with cheers. When the point was put to him afterwards, he denied it. Unfortunately--
Mr. Gapes:
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have been looking at the Select Committee report, but I
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
It is the responsibility of the hon. Member who is speaking to debate the motion that is before the House.
Mr. Blunt:
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am debating the conduct of foreign policy that has led to this shambles over Sierra Leone and goodness knows how many others. Policy towards Kashmir is a classic example of the Government's desire to be all things to all men. That is why they are incapable of giving leadership and why a Rolls-Royce of a Department has ended up as an old banger. Kashmir is a good example. The Foreign Secretary had to backtrack from what he said to an Indian audience in Southall. The Pakistani high commissioner then had to go to the Labour party conference in Blackpool to write Labour's policy statement.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman returned to the subject of Sierra Leone.
Mr. Blunt:
In returning to the subject of Sierra Leone, perhaps I could touch on other areas, such as the Gulf and Kosovo, on which the Government do not have means and ends aligned in a way that will result in the execution of British foreign policy. Sierra Leone is a classic example of the Government willing the ends but not the means. The Government's policy was the peaceful restoration of the Kabbah Government. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling elegantly explained why that policy could not succeed. Peter Penfold knew that. Tim Spicer knew that. President Kabbah knew that. The United Nations legal secretariat knew that when it interpreted Security Council resolution 1132.
The first failure of ministerial leadership was the fact that resolution 1132 sought to be all things to all men and could be interpreted differently by United Nations legal advisers in New York and legal advisers for the Foreign Office. The problem was drafted into an international text because the Government attempted to be all things to all men.
The practitioners knew the harsh truth that only military force would remove an unpleasant military junta from rule in Sierra Leone. The Minister denied that reality. His repeatedly expressed visceral distaste for private military companies spoke volumes about his inability to face the facts about what was required to restore the situation in Sierra Leone.
The irony is that Sandline was central to President Kabbah's restoration to power in early 1998. The December attack by ECOMOG failed. Only when ECOMOG had the benefit of the decent military advice and staff planning supplied by Sandline under contract from President Kabbah was its subsequent attack on Freetown a success.
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