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DELEGATED LEGISLATION
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
With permission, I shall put together the motions relating to delegated legislation.
Ordered,
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mr. Jamieson.]
Mr. Tom Levitt (High Peak):
I remind the House that I am a trustee of the Royal National Institute for Deaf People--an unremunerated post--although tonight I speak in a personal capacity. It is unusual to have debates on issues relating to deaf people two nights running in the House, but I am sure that 8.5 million people in this country with hearing impairments welcome those debates.
In sign language the signs for politics and justice are very similar. That is not surprising, because if politics is about anything it is about securing a fair and just society. That means, among other things, a society in which all have equal access to justice. Our legal system reflects society in many ways. In one respect it reflects society well: in society and in the legal system there is a lack of understanding of the communication needs of people with hearing impairments. That leads to inconvenience, frustration and, ultimately, injustice.
How many people use hearing aids? The answer is about 2 million, with a further 2 million who would benefit from one. How many magistrates use hearing aids? I do not know, but their age profile would suggest that the proportion using hearing aids is higher than that of the general population. How many magistrates courts have induction loops designed to enhance the use of hearing aids? No central figures are kept, but I suspect that the answer is very few. I understand that no courtrooms in Derbyshire have loop systems to help people with hearing aids. It is not compulsory to fit induction loops in courts, although magistrates, defendants, witnesses, court staff, lawyers and the public would all benefit, and justice would be heard to be done.
How many courts include induction loops in their assessment of the accessibility of courtrooms? Those questions illustrate the lack of facilities for people with hearing impairments and a lack of checks on the accessibility of legal buildings, and they expose the Court Service's lack of awareness of the needs of more than 8 million people: one in seven of the people in Britain today.
In September 1998, the Court Service told the RNID that at least one courtroom in every new court building would henceforth be fitted with a loop system but that there was no facility for fitting them anywhere else retrospectively. That is simply not good enough. Are new courtrooms, let alone old ones, designed and lit to facilitate lip reading? Are court staff trained in deaf awareness? My guess is no, but those are reasonable, low-cost adjustments that I would expect the service to make in future.
"Reasonable adjustment" is the phrase used in the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, and purveyors of goods and services, which includes the Court Service, are obliged to implement it from later this year. Not only the Court Service is at fault. The police and the Prison Service, with some honourable exceptions, are equally guilty and, as far as I know, so is the probation service.
One in every 1,000 people in this country is profoundly deaf, with no useful hearing at all. Judge Stephen Tumim, the former chief inspector of prisons and the father of a deaf child, has said:
In this example, in an instant judgment, the police officer decides that A, with his grunting and his waving arms, is most in need of restraint, and he slaps the handcuffs on; but handcuffs gag a deaf person, whose first or only language is sign language. A becomes more angry and frustrated and further consequences inevitably follow. This story is imaginary, but not exceptional, in a country where deaf people are refused entry to pubs, forced to leave clubs and evicted from holiday camps. Instances of all three have been reported in the past couple of years.
Because they communicate in sign, and sometimes make loud and unusual noises which are judged by some people to be offensive to other guests, deaf people have been treated extremely unfairly. Under those circumstances, is it surprising if deaf people's frustration can occasionally boil over into anger and perhaps even violence?
Mr. A is taken along to the police station, unable to express himself as his hands are fixed behind him. Fortunately, the desk sergeant immediately recognises that A is deaf and the police constable who brought him in laughs in embarrassment and makes light of his mistake. The deaf man thinks that the policeman is laughing at him, which does not help his confidence in the system. Mr. A does not understand what is happening because, being deaf from birth--and like most people who are deaf from birth--his lip-reading skills are minimal. Mr. A is searched, and two telephone numbers are found in his pocket. Recognising the need for communication support, the desk sergeant tries to call the numbers to try to find a friend for the deaf person.
The first call produces an odd electronic noise when the phone is answered, which the sergeant does not recognise. He thinks that there is something wrong with the line. In fact, it is a text telephone. Some police stations have text telephones, or minicoms--many do not. In this case, the policeman does not recognise it. The second number gets an answer. It is A's 17-year-old sister, who is hearing. She is very distressed to hear what is going on, and she comes to the police station immediately.
The sergeant rings the contact number in his book for a freelance sign language interpreter but, by now, it is midnight on a Saturday, and the interpreter--who is not expecting the call--is either out or not answering the phone in the middle of the night. Do all police stations know when and how to contact a sign language interpreter? It is unlikely. There are fewer than 150 people with recognised sign language interpreting skills in Britain, and 50,000 people for whom it is their first or only functional language. They need that support.
The sister arrives at the police station. Fortunately,she can sign. Ten minutes later, she is interpreting for her brother, as best she can. However, she is not a qualified interpreter--very far from it. She is young, and unfamiliar with police terminology. She makes a lot of mistakes in her interpretation which, unwittingly, compromise her brother's position.
At the end of the interview, the police constable switches off the audio tape recording. He has a record of the interview which can be referred to later by both sides, as the law says he must--or has he? No, he has not. He has no record of what the accused person said in the interview; only a record of a second-rate interpretation, and no guarantee that the arrested person had even understood the questions being asked.
Why does our legal system not insist on having a professionally qualified interpreter used at this stage? Why is there no obligation to record on video interviews involving sign language, so that the accused's words are at least on record? Are the few sign language interpreters who do exist given proper training for working in legal situations? Is the Lord Chancellor on course to fulfil his pledge in 1998 that, as from 2001, all types of interpreters in court and police interviews should be qualified and registered?
If A was a foreigner, there would be less of a problem--the interpreter's words could always be checked against the audio recording of the original. The Home Office's view--reiterated a couple of weeks ago in another place--is that video-recording sign language interpreting of defendants and witnesses is not essential, and a matter for local discretion. That is quite inconsistent with the Lord Chancellor's ambition.
When Lord Williams of Mostyn said that sign language was just "an expression of English", he was showing a complete misunderstanding of the linguistic and cultural needs of deaf people. He dismissed the concerns expressed by noble Lords far too lightly. His statement was like saying that John Constable's "Hay Wain" and Charles Dickens's "Oliver Twist" were both written in the same language.
The absence of video evidence was discussed in an excellent publication called "Police and Deaf People: A Lack of Communication?", written last year by a police officer and published under the police research awards scheme. I commend it to my hon. Friend the Minister. The paper revealed that no fewer than 71 per cent. of police officers thought that it should be obligatory to record on video interviews involving sign language. Last December, that was also the conclusion of a conference of deaf and hearing professionals in London on "Equality Before the Law: Deaf People's Access to Justice", organised by the University of Durham.
Let us go back to the courts. We have seen that people who use lip-reading or hearing aids do not have their major communication needs met in court, but what about sign language users like A? In 1995, a trial collapsed because the interpreting arrangements fell down.
Do deaf people get British sign language support in court when they need it? Yes, they do. Since April last year, the Lord Chancellor has paid for interpreters for sign language where they are required for deaf defendants in court. In the first nine months of that scheme, the Lord Chancellor has paid for sign language interpreters in no fewer than 71 cases--not an insignificant number.
Are those sign language interpreters treated according to their professional code, with guarantees of preparation time, breaks during the day, and the possibility of working in teams where necessary? That is a genuine question. I do not know the answer; I expect that it is mixed. Are deaf defendants and their interpreters videotaped in court so that mistakes can be checked back to source? No.
What if A had not been a defendant, but a member of the jury. Let us consider an example. We shall call him James. James used to be a highly successful business man. He is now the chief executive of a major charity with an annual turnover of several million pounds. He is a senior member of a Government task force and has spoken at conferences at 10 Downing street and elsewhere.
James is barred from jury service. He is not fictitious. Why is he barred? Although he lip-reads well from close by, he needs the services of a note-taker or a Palantype keyboard operator. He has been profoundly deaf from birth but, unlike 50,000 others like him, he does not use sign language. He is barred from jury service because in the 1960s, I think, a judge refused to allow a 13th person in the jury room to give communication support to a deaf juror.
To their great credit, the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) and the Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael), then an Opposition spokesman on home affairs, attempted to add a short clause to the 1994 Criminal Justice and Public Order Bill. It read:
Speaking at the Inner Temple on 13 February to a disability law conference, my noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor acknowledged that deficiency in the system, and committed the Government to bringing the legal system into accordance with the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. I should be grateful if my hon. Friend, when replying to the debate, would confirm that when the Lord Chancellor acknowledged the widespread concern that interpreters and carers were indeed being unreasonably excluded from the jury room, he included lip speakers, note takers and Palantype keyboard operators as well.
In that speech, the Lord Chancellor also said:
That the draft Trade Union Subscription Deductions (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, which was laid before this House on22nd February, be approved.--[Mr. Mike Hall.]
Question agreed to.
That the Education (Aptitude for Particular Subjects) Regulations 1999 be referred to a Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation.
2 Mar 1999 : Column 985
That the Education (Determination of Admission Arrangements) Regulations 1999 be referred to a Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation.
That the Education (Objections to Admission Arrangements) Regulations 1999 be referred to a Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation.
That the Education (Relevant Areas for Consultation on Admission Arrangements) Regulations 1999 be referred to a Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation.
That the Education (School Information) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 1999 be referred to a Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation.--[Mr. Jamieson.]
10.13 pm
"Magistrates nowadays tend to send more Deaf people to prison on the basis that probation officers cannot deal with them adequately and I think the prisons make entirely inadequate arrangements."
Let us consider how the tendency to send more deaf people to prison than chance would dictate might come about. Two men have an argument outside a pub, late at night. Neither is terribly drunk. One--let us call him A--is profoundly deaf and uses sign language. The other is hearing. They have an altercation and the police arrive. One of the men is coherent and relatively restrained. One is gesticulating and making incoherent noises. Which of the men is the bigger threat to law and order? Which is the more guilty? Which is more likely to be handcuffed?
"The Secretary of State shall . . . set out the procedure by which all persons who are summoned to appear or take part in court proceedings, or taken into police custody, and for whom there is a requirement for either a qualified Sign Language interpreter, other forms of communication support or a technical assistive device may thus be provided with such assistance."
Needless to say, the amendment was not included in the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994.
"No degree of disability . . . should restrict any citizen to second class justice."
Finally, I shall deal with prison. There are more deaf people in prison than chance would dictate. I suspect that Judge Tumim was right in his observation. I am equally sure that there is no natural link between deafness and criminality. However, there is a link between the blindness of the system to the needs of deaf people and the years that some deaf people spend behind bars.
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