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Mr. Alan Clark: I am following the hon. Gentleman's speech with great attention and I agree with practically everything that he has said. In describing the killing process, will he also express his contempt, which is widely shared, for the euphemism that was deployed by my hon. Friend the Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) when the mask slipped for one minute and he referred to "harvesting," which is an ad man's euphemism for the process that the hon. Gentleman has described? What is interesting is that that term conceals the innate guilt and distaste that is felt by everyone who is associated with the process.
Mr. Thomas: The right hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. I join him in his condemnation of that term.
Because mink are semi-aquatic, they are capable of holding their breath for lengthy periods, extending the distress that they experience during the death period. Other forms of killing mink that have been used include neck breaking and electrocution. Perhaps I should describe that process. Electrodes are clamped to the animal's mouth and inserted into its rectum. An alternative method is by lethal injection.
Mr. Peter Atkinson:
Which mink farm in the United Kingdom uses the method of execution that the hon. Gentleman has just described?
Mr. Thomas:
When the Bill is passed, no mink farm will be able to use such methods because there will be no mink farms about.
Mr. Gray:
Will the hon. Member give way?
Mr. Thomas:
I am coming to the end of my remarks, so I will not.
On the method of death, we do not require anyone in this country to have any training for that grisly task. The fur farming industry in Britain cannot say that it has not been warned that a ban on fur farming is coming. The 1989 view by the Farm Animal Welfare Council gave a strong hint that action would be forthcoming. Ministers have been clear on the issue, too. In opposition, our intention to ban fur farming could not have been clearer.
Written questions since the general election from hon. Members have produced ministerial responses that have reconfirmed the Government's intent to support a ban on fur farming. Indeed, when the new Mink Keeping Order was approved in November 1997, the Government confirmed again in writing the intention to ban fur farms.
Mr. Mike Hancock (Portsmouth, South):
I join other hon. Members in congratulating the hon. Member for Liverpool, Garston (Maria Eagle) on the successful way in which she has presented the Bill and her success in coming so high in the ballot. She now has a good chance of getting the Bill through the House. She is undoubtedly doing a great service for a number of people in this country--me included--who have long held the view that legislation was long overdue and in the public interest.
I hope that the House will get behind the hon. Lady. I hope that the official Opposition will join in supporting the Bill. A number of their obvious concerns over the matter have been allayed by hon. Members, not least the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Thomas), who eloquently and positively explained the reasons why the overwhelming majority of the British public are against those farming practices and the way in which the animals are killed.
I share with other Members the distaste for the suggestion that "harvesting" mink in that way was something of a corn-keeping exercise. That was completely distasteful. I am sure that the hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls) will live to regret the use of that word, as I am sure many people in the fur-farming industry will.
Mr. Gray:
In giving way, the hon. Gentleman is braver than the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Thomas), who refused to give way on that point. The hon. Member for Harrow, West, whom the hon. Gentleman is now praising, used emotive language in talking about electrocution of mink. He made some highly charged remarks, but he should know that, of the 15 mink farms that were surveyed by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food some years ago, 14 used gassing and one used barbiturates. There is no evidence that electrocution of the type described, or breaking of necks, is used in the UK.
Mr. Hancock:
The hon. Gentleman is wrong. I have seen film taken in mink farms in this country and documentary evidence that proves that the practice has been carried out. He has made a number of interventions on that and other issues affecting mink. He made the point when he attacked the hon. Member for Garston just minutes into her speech, criticising the fact that she appeared not to have been to a mink farm. He has not been to another planet, but on animal-related issues he
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. First, the hon. Gentleman should remember that he is addressing the Chair; secondly, it might be helpful if the debate did not descend into personal criticisms. We should concentrate on the subject matter.
Mr. Hancock:
When someone puts himself above the parapet like the hon. Member for North Wiltshire(Mr. Gray) has and says some outlandish things to other hon. Members, he should be able to take it a bit.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. My strictures were not directed simply to the hon. Gentleman; I was speaking to the House as a whole. It is best that we deal with the subject matter rather than personalities.
Mr. Hancock:
I will allow the hon. Gentleman to get the point off his chest.
Mr. Gray:
Perhaps I can clarify my position as the hon. Gentleman has made some strange remarks about it. I strongly support the Bill, will not seek to divide the House and will vote in favour of it if the House divides, but I will do so because, in Committee, we will be able to examine some of the welfare issues about which I am still concerned. For the hon. Gentleman to suggest that I am against the Bill is incorrect.
Mr. Hancock:
The hon. Gentleman could have given a clearer indication of that by not pursuing some of the points that he has, but I welcome the suggestion that he is wholeheartedly behind the Bill and will do all he can--
Mr. Hancock:
Not wholeheartedly, but the hon. Gentleman supports the Bill.
The information that we have been sent shows that the lobby advocating fur farming has come up with four key issues. Those of us who have followed the issue with great interest over the past 20 years have heard them before. The first argument is that the measure is an infringement of the individual's right to conduct business and that fur farmers are law-abiding. The response to that is that people do not have the right to do lots of things that are considered inhumane. For that reason alone, there is reason--it is time--for the decision to be taken.
We have progressed as a society and become more intolerant of many inhumane practices, which are legion. Over the past 100 years or so, we have successfully passed laws to end many of those practices. Our attempt to ban fur farming, once and for all, is the latest example of the progress that we are trying to make.
The second argument--which was made by the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg)--is that fur farming is no different from normal legal farming. The rebuttal to that argument is that, in most cases, other animals are farmed for food to be used for the common good, not for something that
is regarded as a luxury item. When that fact was pointed out earlier in the debate, the hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) said, "Here we have the class battle." It is no such thing, and it was nonsense for her to have said that. I am sorry that she is not in the Chamber to hear my reply.
Farm animals are domesticated, not wild. I cannot believe that anyone could reasonably suggest that a mink is anything other than a wild animal. Generally, all parts of farm animals are used. Very little of animals that are reasonably described as farm animals and that are used for food is not used in one way or another. Perhaps, in time, our society will evolve out of meat farming, although that is probably a long way off. Undoubtedly, however, that evolution will eventually come.
The third argument is on the rights of fur breeders. The hon. Member for Garston has more than justified her position by providing in her Bill for fur farmers to be compensated for the loss of their business. In all conscience, surely we must admit that loss of those businesses is a small price for the United Kingdom, as a community, to pay in ending a practice that undoubtedly unnecessarily tortures and kills animals.
The fourth argument against the Bill pursued by those who advocate continuing the trade is that the Government should regulate the industry, to prevent animal abuse, rather than ban it. We have already had that opportunity, have we not? The right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham himself told us that he felt that, when he led on the issue for the previous Government, he had neglected addressing the issue. He chose not to do so. The farmers have had the opportunity to deal with the issue, but they have neglected to do so. Therefore, there cannot be any reasonable excuse for us not now to take on the issue.
The four key arguments levelled against the Bill are easily and remarkably quickly despatched. Sadly, it is a lot quicker to dispose of them than it is to dispose of the animals that those people continue to torture.
The dimensions of the cages in which the animals are held are not much larger than the Dispatch Box. Do advocates of fur farming honestly believe that those are proper conditions in which to keep any animal--especially an animal that should develop and flourish--for any longer than a few minutes? It cannot be right to keep animals in such conditions.
I cannot believe that even the most hardhearted hon. Member would want to go home and tell his or her children that he or she is in favour of animals--100,000 of them every year in the United Kingdom--being caged in such conditions for long periods, simply so that they can be put to death and more than 1,000 fur coats made, so that people can prance around feeling that they look a little more attractive than they might in a man-made alternative. It is not reasonable for the House to allow the trade to continue.
The consequences of our vanity is around for us all to see. For centuries, we have used and abused animals to satisfy our own vanity. But there is no excuse for us to continue exercising that right, if it is a right. I am disappointed that the Council of Europe did not take a much harder line on the issue. I represent the United Kingdom Parliament in the Council of Europe, and I am disappointed that the United Kingdom did not fight harder to ensure that the community of Europe took a more forceful line on the issue.
Many of the arguments that hon. Members made today on the scientific evidence can easily be rebutted. For every argument in favour of continuing fur farming, there are many more arguments against it. We have to consider carefully payments supporting some of the research programmes, especially the exercise in Scandinavia and in Denmark. The scientific evidence in that exercise was produced not without solicitation, but often at the specific request of those whose only interest was to ensure continuation and justification of the trade.
It cannot be right, and must not be thought to be right, to allow animals to be so mistreated and abused. I am disappointed that 13 fur farms are still operating in the United Kingdom. I only wish that we had been able, long ago, to force those farmers to reconsider their futures. Like many people, I was hoping that the campaigns against wearing and farming fur that have been fought in the past 20 or 30 years would have been sufficient for farmers to realise that they should change to alternative ways of making a living.
I share the view expressed by the hon. Member for Garston that fur farming creates nowhere near the number of jobs that the industry claims. I agree with her appraisal that the industry provides about 50 jobs. Hon. Members who have, like me, visited fur farms will know that that employment figure is realistic. I am glad to say that both the farms that I visited closed long ago. I have also stood outside other farms, which are still operating, and never saw anywhere near the number of employees that has been suggested coming out of them.
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