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Mr. Peter Atkinson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for meeting my colleagues and I the other day. I was churlish to forget to thank him for the hour that he gave us, and for promising to consider compensation in more detail.
Austria banned fur farming, but with the money that they were given some farmers set up shop 30 miles away in Czechoslovakia, which has far lower standards of supervision than those in Austria, so where is the benefit?
Mr. Morley:
We are applying new standards in the Council of Europe, which goes beyond the countries of the European Union and covers eastern Europe. What
My hon. Friends the Members for Basildon (Angela Smith) and for Harrow, West (Mr. Thomas), the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Hancock), my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, East (Jane Griffiths) and the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham referred to the impact on mink. They are right and I agree with their analysis. Many detailed studies have been carried out in support of both sides of the argument. The question is whether fur farming can be made acceptable for the future.
Mink are solitary animals, and in the wild they have wide ranges and have access to water. Many scientists believe that they should have access to water, although some hon. Members argued the contrary. It is difficult to provide that access in a system of commercial rearing. No system so far proposed can meet those standards. If we went for higher standards, it would undoubtedly squeeze most, if not all, fur farmers out of business. It is strange that some Conservative Members were arguing that we should follow that path, and that, instead of taking a clear decision with a phase-out period and a compensation package, we should raise standards and bankrupt the people involved without paying any compensation. That does not seem a fair way in which to deal with this problem compared with the proposals in the Bill.
As has been said, the chairman of the Fur Breeders Association and the fur farmers with whom I discussed the Bill want to be clear about the future. If fur farming is to end, they want a phase-out date and compensation arrangements. They want to know what is happening so that they can plan for the future. The Bill meets all their concerns, so it came as no surprise to me that although the Fur Breeders Association would prefer not to have such a Bill, it is prepared to accept it.
Many scientific studies argued against fur farming and cast doubts over the conditions in which the animals are kept. Other vets and scientists put alternative views and suggested that the cages could be redesigned and made acceptable. Some of those arguments were also disputed by the scientific and veterinary profession.
The right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham was inconsistent in his argument as he said that battery cages were unacceptable and created animal welfare problems. Hens have been bred from jungle fowl for a very long time--no creatures are more domesticated--yet they still exhibit natural behaviour such as scratching and dust bathing. However, the five freedoms do not apply to battery cages. The Government have adopted a consistent approach. That is why we are arguing in Europe for the phasing out of battery cages in the long term.
Mr. Hogg:
The Minister is quite right. However, in the short term he and many of his hon. Friends are eating eggs produced by the battery system. Therefore, I find his disparaging approach difficult to understand.
Mr. Morley:
Consumers can choose whether they buy free-range or battery-produced eggs. There is no such choice in respect of fur--people cannot buy free-range mink fur. We are taking a consistent approach to the criteria. Although there are issues to be addressed in
Some scientists argued against the abolition of veal crates, sow stalls and tethers. There will always be arguments about the pros and cons of phasing out certain practices, however the right decision was taken. The European scientific and veterinary committee reached similar conclusions in respect of veal crates, sow stalls and tethers and in due course those practices will be phased out in Europe.
Mr. Paterson:
Following my earlier intervention, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) and I have gone through the Bill and the explanatory notes very carefully, but we can find no reference to any European human rights legislation, so the Bill may be committing the British taxpayer to substantial legal expenses in Europe. Is it not a futile gesture? The total sum of mink happiness will not be increased as the same number of mink will be farmed. The industry will simply move abroad to Czechoslovakia or the Slovak Republic where conditions will be worse than they are here.
Mr. Morley:
I assure the hon. Gentleman that his point about the European Court of Human Rights is certainly being addressed. If it is not mentioned in the explanatory notes to the Bill, I am happy to write to him to confirm that the issue is being addressed. We are not committing the Government to such challenges. Any Bill that the Government support and that ultimately may become Government legislation has to bear that in mind. I have dealt with the point on other countries. What other countries do should not dictate what we do in this country.
The Government have been consistent in applying the same standards to any animal-rearing system. In Committee, we will examine the issues that have been raised in the debate to find out whether they are being dealt with, but the important thing is that there is a clear case against fur farming on welfare and moral grounds. It is a dying industry. The trends are against it. The Bill is a fair package that reflects overwhelming public concerns and the legitimate concerns of fur farmers.
Mr. Alan Clark (Kensington and Chelsea):
The House of Commons has a long, remarkable and honourable tradition of debating animal welfare issues, usually at the behest of Back Benchers. Indeed, many years ago, I made my maiden speech in this place in support a private Member's Bill, introduced by the hon. Member for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), which would have outlawed hare coursing.
I am glad to be a sponsor of the Fur Farming (Prohibition) Bill and to congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, Garston (Maria Eagle) on its concise and lucid
quality, which is in marked contrast--I see him sitting beside her--to the Bill in the name of the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Foster). That was so ludicrously ill-drafted, penal and repressive that I spoke against it, although I had looked forward to it with high expectation.
If Back Benchers draft their measures properly and get the sympathy and support of the House, much good can come of them. I say in parenthesis that I am somewhat apprehensive, although I support the principle, of the Right to Roam Bill because it is in the name of the hon. Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice), who, whenever I hear him, is usually recommending to the House that one or other Tory Member should go to prison, and whose general attitude to social issues is down-market Leninist, as far as I can make out. He is the worst possible person to promote a Bill that has, in principle, much to be said for it and that should enjoy the support of the whole House. However, it remains to be seen what happens to that Bill.
I will not repeat many of the arguments that we have heard already; I do not want to take the House's time on that. I say simply that I, many hon. Members and many of the people who have written to us on the topic hold the view that man has a duty of care to all living creatures, consistent only with his own survival on the planet.
For example, where it is necessary for man to survive by eating animals, we have a duty to control and to regulate as far as we can, and to make as humane as possible the process by which they are put to death. Where man is advised, or believes, that medical science will be advanced by experimentation--a precept about which I am exceedingly doubtful--it is equally necessary for proper regulation to surround the process. But, here we have a case where animals are being bred simply for adornment. It is purely a commercial and profit-oriented activity.
Mr. Forth:
What is wrong with that?
Mr. Clark:
I recognise the voice of my right hon. Friend, who is not in his usual place--I do not know why; he usually sits next to me. I will tell him what is wrong with that. It is gratuitous cruelty, inflicted on other living creatures for a purpose that is totally unconnected with man's survival on the planet. It is thus in breach of a feeling that I hold in conscience--I know that I am not alone in that. We should do our best to eliminate such cruelty.
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