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11.4 pm
Mr. William Ross (East Londonderry): The hon. Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman) said at the outset that there was quite a lot in common between Northern Ireland and Scotland. That is true in many ways. A great deal more in common will rear its head over the next few years as the Scottish National party increases its strength. He will find out then what nationalism in the Northern Ireland context and the Scottish context really means in political terms. His education is not complete, but it will be.
Like everyone else, I have received the documentation fairly late in the day. I have had an opportunity to glance through it. I must confess that I am not yet clear as to how the bodies are formed, how many persons will be on the bodies and how they are to be chosen. Undoubtedly, the Minister will clear up those matters for me in his reply.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann(Mr. Trimble) was clear that the quasi-autonomous national Government organisations that will be created will be under Assembly control. That will depend on whether the Assembly is controllable enough to agree on what should be done with the quangos; I am not so sure that it will be. There is a slight chance of friction on the matter. Ultimately, it will all depend on whether the IRA will co-operate in surrendering its weapons. I see precious little sign of that.
The particulars of the agreement, on page 10 of the documentation, state that
I should like to deal with the matter of inland waterways--the four functions of the
The order mentions the Shannon-Erne, the Ulster canal, the wider Shannon-Erne system and the other waterways--such as the Royal canal, the Grand canal, and the Barrow and Lagan systems. Interestingly, it includes also navigation on the lower Bann. The lower Bann is a long, long way from the border. Although it is a major waterway and has considerable potential for the tourist trade, I cannot understand of what interest it might be in the implementation of any cross-border body. If the Republic wished to be difficult about the matter, it could starve the river of any sums that need to be spent on it, to the benefit of its own areas and the cross-border areas. As the lower Bann runs through a chunk of my constituency, I should not take very kindly to that happening.
When I looked up the order's references to repeals and transfers, I discovered that the new bodies will be taking on liabilities--such as the liability of compensation--powers of land entry and certain powers in fisheries. It is clear that the longer-term intention is to take control of all inland waters that could be used for navigation. In many ways, and for a number of reasons, I find that prospect disturbing, especially as there will be three regional divisions--northern, western and eastern. Perhaps we could be told exactly which areas each of the subdivisions will cover, and why it is necessary to have the subdivisions.
The inland waterways body will have all the powers "necessary or incidental" to the exercise of its functions. The powers are not specified, but I think that they are probably stated in preceding legislation. I noted that the Water (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, which the House recently passed, is mentioned in the order. The new body would assume control of various aspects of that order--such as the power of the Department to carry out works, canal schemes, powers of maintenance, waterways, general powers of the Department, provisions of the drainage order, and all the rest of it. Those are wide powers. When they are applied to the Foyle area and Bann navigation, considerable sums of public money could be involved. Many people will not be happy with a quango controlling them. They are already quangoised to some extent, but the existing quangos at least have elected members and members of local councils.
The hon. Member for Greenock and Inverclyde referred to aquaculture and marine matters. That aspect of the order is interesting and involves the Foyle Fisheries Commission, which has a long history. I made a speech on it in the House some years ago. If hon. Members are interested in the body's roots, they should look up that speech. It is a cross-border body that was set up to protect the game fishing, mainly salmon fishing, in the Foyle, which is a valuable commercial and angling fishery.
The order says that the powers are to be extended to Carlingford lough. I do not know of any salmon rivers or game fish rivers of any description flowing into Carlingford lough. I do not know the area well, but I do
not remember many of my game fishing friends taking expeditions to that area. I do not see the point of that.It must have something to do with navigation and lights. Some navigation aids in Lough Foyle have always been under the control of the Londonderry harbour authority.
Lough Foyle is not a suitable place for the development of aquaculture and salmon farming because it is shallow. It is a valuable wild salmon fishery and it would be crazy to do anything to damage it. We know what has happened to sea trout in the west of Scotland and down the west coast of Ireland and the problems of salmon farming in Norway. There have also been recent infestations in salmon farms in Scotland. We do not want any of that; we have seen quite enough of it. I apologise to the Scots, but I should prefer it if they kept it at home.
Dr. Godman:
That is my point. Any body with responsibility for such shallow water should refuse all licence applications for any kind of fish farming.
Mr. Ross:
We do not need the cross-border body to do that. The Foyle Fisheries Commission is perfectly capable and has dealt with that.
The Foyle has quite a large shell fishery; we also have the largest eel fishery in Europe. All those matters, formerly internal to Northern Ireland, will now be cross-border matters. The new body is to have 12 members. An earlier draft said that there were to be three from the Republic and the Carlingford area and three from Northern Ireland, with the same proportions in the Foyle fisheries organisation. The Foyle is currently run by civil servants from Belfast and civil servants from the Republic. At least that was 50:50. Now the Unionist population will be in a minority of four against eight. Some people may say that that is a good deal, but I say forget it. It is a dangerous situation.
Those who are anxious about the powers over discharge can look them up in this year's Northern Ireland water order. We are handing over to the new body all powers over discharges into the river system in one of the most valuable salmon fisheries in Northern Ireland--indeed, one of the most valuable in these islands. The new quango will not be able to do a better job than has been done in the past. The Foyle Fisheries Commission is not one of my favourite bodies, but it has improved recently because it has some money. I fear that the proposals are a retrograde step and I do not welcome them. It is foolish of the Government to pursue them.
I could say a great deal more about food safety. My hon. Friend the Member for West Tyrone (Mr. Thompson) has mentioned some of the issues. There are issues relating to trade and business and how a language body will be nothing but an attempt to increase the use of Irish Gaelic. That has not worked in the Republic since 1920.
Mr. Trimble
indicated dissent.
Mr. Ross:
My right hon. Friend may shake his head, but most of the money will go to the not very many people who wish to learn the language. Minority languages are a residue of the past--they are dying and being superseded by modern languages. The languages of the future are the languages of technology--English, German and Japanese. Minor languages can be sent off to the academics,
Mr. Paul Murphy:
With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall reply; there is much in the debate to reply to. First, I thank the right hon. Member for Bracknell (Mr. MacKay) for his support today, and for accepting my apologies for the way in which we have had to rush the documentation.
The right hon. Gentleman referred--as did the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble)--to the interdependency of the bodies in terms of the agreement. Both were right--it was clear in the talks, and in the agreement itself, that the agreement is a package. The success of the agreement depends on the success of all the different parts of the package. It will work only if all the institutions and parts of the agreement work as well. That is why paragraph 5 of the declaration of support and the preamble to the treaty have embedded the principle in the treaty and the accompanying order.
"an Assembly in Northern Ireland, a North/South Ministerial Council, implementation bodies, a British-Irish Council, and a British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference and any amendments to British Acts of Parliament and the Constitution of Ireland . . . are interlocking and interdependent and that in particular the functions of the Assembly and the North/South Council are so closely inter-related that the success of each depends on that of the other".
My right hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann said that, if the Assembly fell--or if it never comes into operation, for whatever reasons--the cross-border bodies would cease to exist or never come into existence. Interestingly, when the subject was discussed during passage of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, the Minister was rather coy about it. I hope that he will not be quite so reticent about it today, and will confirm that my right hon. Friend's comments on it were absolutely accurate. Many people in Northern Ireland are fed up with fooling around at the edges of the issue and should like to have a very clear statement on it from Ministers.
"management, maintenance, development and restoration of the inland navigable waterway system"--
which are mainly, but not only, canals, and chiefly for the tourist trade, either internal or external.
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