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Mr. Andrew Love (Edmonton): The hon. Gentleman said that the cost to the Exchequer for Derbyshire alone, after the fuel escalator, would be about £117,000. Can he give the House an idea of the likely cost to the Exchequer of a nationwide scheme?
Mr. McLoughlin: I was expecting such a question to be asked--not planted; that would be an absurd suggestion. The Bill would give the voluntary sector the same treatment as the commercial sector. The Government whom the hon. Gentleman supports will make an allowance for an increase in the fuel duty rebate
to the commercial sector this week, following the Chancellor's Budget announcements. A few weeks ago, in a written answer to a question that I had asked, the Minister for Transport in London said:
- "Expenditure"--
- "is expected to be £270 million in this financial year, reflecting the increase in the rate of rebate in line with this year's increase in duty."--[Official Report, 19 January 1999; Vol. 323, c. 445.]
I am saying to the hon. Gentleman that the Government are finding about £300 million for the commercial sector. In some cases--not in all cases, and they would not want to do so constantly--operators may be running buses empty, and they will receive a Government subsidy for doing so. The community transport scheme provides a valuable service, which is used.
I say to the hon. Gentleman, anticipating the intervention that he or another hon. Member may make, that my Bill would give a 100 per cent. rebate. I am the first to accept that the Bill has not been drafted by the parliamentary draftsmen whose services were open to the Government to use--and we know that sometimes even they can make mistakes in Bills. I believe that, so far, more than 70 amendments have been tabled to schedule 1 of the Employment Relations Bill--a Government-drafted Bill.
I am happy for the Bill to pass into Committee and for the Government to use their draftsmen and to say that we have not quite got it right and a few amendments--tinkerings--are needed. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that, if no such amendments were needed, it would be the first time ever that a Bill needed no amendment at all. My Bill may not be perfectly drafted, but there will be an opportunity in Committee to address some of those problems.
I also point out to the hon. Gentleman that another charity gets a 100 per cent. rebate--I am very pleased that it does--and that is the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. I consider that the schemes that I am talking about today provide a valuable service to all those elderly, handicapped or disabled people in my constituency. I am not sure which constituency the hon. Gentleman represents, but I am sure that the same applies there.
This important Bill should progress further through its parliamentary stages.
Mr. Love:
I return to the question that I asked earlier. Will the hon. Gentleman give the House an idea of the likely cost of his Bill to the Exchequer, should it be introduced nationwide?
Mr. McLoughlin:
I have just said that the amount of money that the Government are spending this year or as a result of the Budget that the hon. Gentleman no doubt supports and no doubt waved his Order Paper for, will mean that the commercial sector will get a £300 million rebate, on the Government's figures. As a matter of fairness, the Community Transport Association should be treated in the same way as the commercial sector. The points that the hon. Gentleman makes about cost can be discussed in Committee.
The hon. Gentleman must acknowledge that some of the costs that are already being faced by local authorities in giving the money to community transport schemes are a call on the Exchequer. The simple fact is that 50,000 registered bus services already place a charge of about £300 million on the Exchequer.
It is also possible to assume that the exemption would lead to lower charges for users. For example, the Bakewell and Eyam community transport scheme charges to cover the costs and has stated that, with the £14,500 a year saving which it has estimated would come from a fuel duty exemption, it would be able to offer lower fares and expand the service.
The Public Accounts Committee report on the bus fuel grant, which was presented to Parliament in June 1989, stressed the contribution that bus fuel grants for public bus services make to keeping fares down and enabling wider mileage of provision than would otherwise be possible.
I have already described the tangible difference that community transport schemes make to everyday life for elderly and disabled people. The Bill could make even more of a difference by extending that excellent service. That would increase the provision of public transport, especially in rural areas, and help to build the integrated transport system that the Government keep talking about. If they are serious about that, they should take the Bill seriously.
I believe that this measure is fair for voluntary community transport schemes, which do so much good for their communities. They and the registered operators should be given equal treatment, especially because community bus services, which go out of their way to help those who have least access to mainstream transport, are disqualified from assistance. My Bill would correct that anomaly.
I have had plenty of support for the Bill. I have already referred to its sponsors, and I should like to thank some of the other people who have given me tremendous help with the Bill. I thank the Public Bill Office for its help with drafting the Bill. It is difficult to draw up legilsation. This private Member's Bill has not been given to me by the Government to progress through the parliamentary process.
It is outrageous that the Government have made a statement, which took an hour of our time, on a Friday during debate on a private Member's Bill. This is only the third Friday of this parliamentary Session on which the House has sat, and it is the second Friday on which the Government have made a statement. It is disgraceful to interrupt discussions on a private Member's Bill. In the past, the Government have made statements at seven o'clock on a Thursday evening before a non-sitting Friday. Given that this statement was trailed in the press yesterday, there is no justification for the Government to take valuable time away from debate on private Member's Bills. They are obviously attempting to ensure that my
Bill makes no further progress. I hope that the Procedure Committee will examine that problem. When that happens on a Friday--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
Order. The hon. Gentleman has made his point many times over.
Mr. McLoughlin:
The point is always worth making strongly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I accept your ruling. I hope that the Procedure Committee will look into the matter.
I have received support from various people. I should like to mention Colin Smale, who runs the Amber Valley community transport scheme in my constituency. He said:
Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley):
A couple of months ago, I visited a centre in Heanor, in my constituency, called Stepping Stones. It provides lunch every day for pensioners. For the first time, I achieved my ambition to keep fit by joining the centre's morning keep-fit class. I do not normally get around to that here, although I always intend to go to the gym.
At lunchtime on the day of my visit, we discovered that several people who should have been there were missing, because of a bomb scare near the pick-up point for the community transport buses. People had not been able to travel to a centre on which they relied for their daily meal. That shows how important community transport is every day. The system started in Derbyshire in the early 1980s, as a result of the international year of the disabled. As the
hon. Member for West Derbyshire (Mr. McLoughlin) said, there are now eight groups in the county, one of which is in Derby.
As a sponsor of the Bill, I am delighted that my neighbour has seen the light, recognised the importance of this issue and become aware of the campaign that took place all last year in Derbyshire, and has also been taking place in other parts of the country. I shall restrain myself from talking about the Conservative Government's record on public transport, although the hon. Gentleman lashed out a bit at the end of his speech, letting himself down after showing a very co-operative approach. I will, however, give a little of the history of the campaign that led to the Bill.
Let me say, first, that the community transport services in my area have even been visited by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, during the election campaign. She has seen the valuable work that community transport can do.
Those in charge of community transport are very pleased about the new understanding of its role that is developing among Transport Ministers, in particular. They are especially pleased with what has been said in the transport White Paper. Paragraph 5.35 states:
That report, which was commissioned from Steer Davies Gleave, has not yet been published, but, as a result of a parliamentary question that I asked my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, I have been given a copy of its findings. It says that a number of issues should be taken on board to assist community transport:
The petition to which the hon. Member for West Derbyshire referred had 7,000 signatures from people throughout the county, and I presented it in December. It raised a specific issue: if we allowed the fuel duty rebate paid to commercial bus operators to be paid to community transport vehicles, that would end the discrimination faced by elderly and disabled people who were unable to gain access to normal bus services. Those people seek an end to discrimination. That is the campaign that I have been pursuing.
"If the Government are going to be looking to Community Transport to continue to expand their work in rural areas in particular then it is reasonable for us to look to government to offer financial support to help make that happen."
In the Community Transport Magazine in 1999, the Minister for Transport in London said:
"The White Paper is about integration: different modes of transport, of transport policy with other policies and of transport policy at local, regional and national levels. It is also about integrating the needs of a wide variety of groups and individuals in the operation of transport planning and provision.
If the Minister and the Government mean what they say, they should not object to discussion of the issues in Committee, so that we can find out more about the Government's views. The Bill is small and not complicated, but it would significantly improve the operation of community transport in a number of constituencies.
It's about transport helping to build and serve communities. The White Paper is founded on the principle that transport should be safe, it should be efficient, it should be clean, and it should be fair. It must be fair in that it serves the needs of all those who use it, including elderly people, disabled people and children. In other words, it must mitigate, not contribute to, social exclusion. It must serve rural areas as well as urban ones. Rural communities have a strong tradition of self-help and community and voluntary transport has made a significant contribution to the quality of life in rural areas for many years."
"Conventional public transport cannot always meet the diverse accessibility needs of all in our communities, particularly the needs of disabled people and those who live in remote rural areas."
The White Paper goes on to refer to the strength of voluntary action and community transport. The Community Transport Association is pleased that the Government have commissioned a special report to examine the issues surrounding community transport and is therefore confident that action will be taken to help it. The Bill proposes one way in which to help.
"The voluntary transport sector requires encouragement if it is to develop; otherwise, as it faces increasing pressure to deliver transport services:
It recommends that a number of measures should be taken by central Government, including
it will become less effective; and,
its task will become ever more difficult."
"providing the voluntary sector with access to passenger transport financial support comparable to concessionary fares and fuel duty rebate".
That recommendation will go to the Government from a report that they themselves have commissioned. As I say, the Bill provides one mechanism for giving that assistance.
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