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Mr. McLoughlin: May I assure the hon. Lady that I did realise that? As I understand it, although I was not able to extend the rebate scheme, for the reasons to which she referred, it would be possible to amend the Bill to allow a percentage of the rebate, so that it would indeed do exactly what we both want: give the same to the commercial sector as to the voluntary sector.
Judy Mallaber: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that comment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love) asked what the costs of the scheme would be. On a completely rough-and-ready basis, depending on exactly what parts of the community transport service are involved, my proposal to extend the fuel duty rebate would cost between £4 million and £8 million. That is a ball-park figure. Obviously, I do not have access to the information. I hope that more will become available as a result of the study by the consultants.
As a result of the petition, my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Mr. Levitt) and I visited the Chancellor and the Minister of Transport. Before I talk about the some of the specific issues that they raised with me, I shall look a little more at the role of community transport and some of the things that it does.
I mentioned the White Paper on public transport, which looks at an integrated transport system. Unfortunately, the current transport system is not accessible to all the general public; it is not accessible to perhaps 10 per cent. of people who have mobility problems: the elderly or disabled. I ask the Minister to acknowledge in her reply that the current public transport system is not open to all the general public. That will at least get that out of the way.
I agree that the position has been made worse by what happened in the Budget, although I do not in any way criticise the fuel duty escalator, which was introduced by the previous Government. However, an issue arises from it. We estimate that the measure will cost Amber Valley Community Transport an extra £1,900. I understand that about £50 million will be added to the fuel duty rebate to commercial bus companies. I say that not to challenge the provision, but merely to raise an issue that should be addressed.
We already get community transport on the cheap. Amber Valley Community Transport has 40 drivers and 36 escorts who volunteer--they work for free--in driving buses and in helping people who cannot reach supermarket shelves, for example, to do their shopping. There are many examples of the work done by those volunteers--such as John Waldron, who gave up his Christmas day to drive people to a Christmas dinner.
As an example of the lengths to which people will go to help in providing community transport, I should mention Karen Dudley, the operations manager at Amber Valley
Community Transport, who herself is in a wheelchair but--I was rather stunned to hear it--did a free-fall parachute jump, in tandem with an experienced parachutist, to raise funds for the scheme. By doing the jump, she raised £2,000 from a Chesterfield firm and another £1,000 from other people.
Another example is the Amber Valley Community Transport administration officer, who is also a barbershop singer. She organised a barbershop concert to support community transport. Those are the types of things being done to subsidise a community transport service for a section of our community.
Amber Valley has four different services, which were mentioned by the hon. Member for West Derbyshire. Dial-a-bus--which is equivalent to dial-a-ride elsewhere--provides both regular bus services from one part of the area to another and free helpers to assist people with tasks such as shopping. There is also a door-to-door pick-up service, which, in our area, is called dial-a-ride. There are also group rides. Finally, there is a bus contracting facility--which would not be covered by the Bill. All four are valuable services, and any rebate to one service would enable us to expand the others.
I should like to give a couple of examples--with which I was provided, just the other day, by my local community transport--of the assistance provided by community transport services.
Mrs. B is 79 years old and lives alone four miles from the nearest town centre. She suffers from arthritis and walks with sticks. She travels on dial-a-bus into Alfreton every Thursday morning, and into Mansfield every other Monday, to do her own shopping, to visit the bank and to collect her pension. The service is the only way in which she can remain independent. She has also built up a wide social circle by using dial-a-bus.
Mrs. D is in her late 30s and has multiple sclerosis. She uses a wheelchair. She is the mother of two children. She goes into Heanor every week to do the family shopping. She uses a dial-a-bus escort to help her get around town. It is the only way in which she can maintain her family and her role within the family nucleus.
Mr. O is 84 years old. He is a war veteran and lives alone. He has double vision, and therefore cannot use conventional public transport. He travels on the Wirksworth dial-a-bus every Tuesday, and also uses the regular Matlock bus--in the constituency of the hon. Member for West Derbyshire. Mr. O also travels on the fortnightly out-of-town service, which takes passengers into Derby, Mansfield and Chesterfield. He is a very proud man, and the service is the only way in which he can keep his independence.
I have given those examples not only to show the importance of community transport, but to explain the type of services that are provided, and why I believe that such services should, like commercial bus services, be assisted.
Some of the issues on community bus services that Ministers have raised with me can be tackled. I realise that there will be some complications in addressing the issues, but, as I said, I am not hooked on any one particular method of doing so. I am speaking today simply to try to raise the issues and to get Ministers to consider
them seriously. I certainly hope that resolving the matter will not require a private Member's Bill. I hope also that the matter will be taken on board in the current review of community transport, to which I know Ministers are sympathetic.
The current legal position is that the fuel duty rebate is available only for buses that run scheduled services that are open to any public passenger. I contend, first, that commercial bus companies are not open to all the general public living along their routes, as 10 per cent. of the population along those routes are unable to access bus services because they have mobility problems. People in wheelchairs, for example, cannot use the buses.
Secondly, some community bus services, particularly dial-a-bus, which makes 60 per cent. of the journeys in my area, are scheduled services. All the people I mentioned earlier use a regular scheduled bus service that happens to be a community transport service. I have a whole sheaf of schedules. One can go from Somercotes to Alfreton every Thursday. The bus gets there at 10.30 am and leaves at 12 o'clock. They are all scheduled services which run on a regular basis in the same way as those operated by a commercial bus company. They are open to all members of the general public who do not have access to the services operated by the standard commercial bus companies which claim to be available to the general public; the only difference is that people phone in advance to say that they will be using the service and arrange to be picked up from their homes.
I noticed in a newspaper today that the Deputy Prime Minister is examining whether taxis could be used to provide a more comprehensive service without requiring a bus to go to every village: the taxi service would complement the bus service. It is an excellent idea, which would expand the integrated transport system. If such a facility could be arranged to enable people living in remote areas to have access to the scheduled bus service, why would the same not be possible in respect of community transport? It is the only factor that distinguishes dial-a-bus from a commercial bus company. Some of the legal arguments and definitions are not necessarily valid, and that should certainly be taken seriously.
Because of the way in which it is formulated, the Bill is in Treasury hands. However, according to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, any rebate scheme would be paid out of the transport budget. Quite understandably, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport was concerned that it would be an open-ended commitment; so it is a difficult issue.
As there are many different types of community transport, definitions are also important. There will have to be a number of gateways. Which organisations would be eligible to be defined as community transport organisations? That is easy. Section 19 of the Transport Act 1985 defines who is eligible for a permit to run community transport bus services. That could be the first gateway. It would then be necessary to decide which parts of the service qualified to be included in the provision. That would need to be examined carefully. My contention is that at least the dial-a-bus service should be eligible.
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