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2.15 pm
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ms Patricia Hewitt): I shall begin by congratulating the hon. Member for West Derbyshire (Mr. McLoughlin) on securing a position in the ballot for private Members' Bills. I also congratulate him, his hon. Friends and my hon. Friends, the co-sponsors of the Bill, on securing an extremely lively and interesting debate on a subject of great importance to their constituents and to many people throughout the country.
The hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members have spoken eloquently about the need to support community bus services, and about the real benefits that they deliver to their communities. The Government accept wholeheartedly the worth of those services, and said as much in the White Paper on the future of transport, "A New Deal for Transport: Better for Everyone", which was recently launched by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister.
The hon. Gentleman and others who have spoken in the debate stressed the fact that many people living in rural areas do not have access to bus services. That is right. In paragraph 5.35 of the White Paper, we said:
Mr. Maclean:
It is most courteous of the hon. Lady to give way. I accept that she has allocated £50 million a year to rural transport. Will she tell us what the income to the Treasury will be from the 17p a gallon increase in petrol that rural motorists will have to pay in the next year?
Ms Hewitt:
We are continuing the fuel duty escalator introduced by previous Government--the right hon. Gentleman was a member of that Government. Now that the Conservative party is in opposition, it has given up on the policy that it correctly introduced to reduce people's dependence on car transport, and in so doing to contribute to our environmental objectives, in particular, the achievement of the Kyoto and other targets for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions.
I shall explain what the Government are doing to assist rural transport, especially in Derbyshire. Derbyshire's share of the rural transport fund is £700,000 a year: the fund assists new bus services in rural areas. That is a matter of concern not only to the hon. Member for West Derbyshire but to my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Judy Mallaber). There is also a further £800,000 for the Southern Derbyshire rural access initiative, which has been awarded through the rural bus challenge competition.
Dr. Desmond Turner (Brighton, Kemptown):
Does my hon. Friend agree that this morning has been a bit like a session in another forum with which my hon. Friends are familiar? An important subject is raised and a resolution is proposed--in this case a Bill--that addresses the subject but not necessarily in the most helpful way, and the movers are asked to remit it. In expressing the Government's support for, and intention to promote the interests of, community transport, will the Minister please take into account that this subject is just as important in urban areas as it is in rural communities?
Ms Hewitt:
My hon. Friend is right. There are notable examples of community and voluntary transport schemes--in London, for instance--that are enormously helpful to people with disabilities. My hon. Friend made another important point in reminding us that concern about rural transport and community transport schemes is not the subject of the Bill.
Judy Mallaber:
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Ms Hewitt:
I should have liked to finish what I was saying in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Dr. Turner), but of course I will give way.
Judy Mallaber:
I understand that, although so far petitions on the issue that I raised have come from
Ms Hewitt:
That is an interesting point, but I am sure that, like me, my hon. Friend welcomes the additional funds that the Government's rural transport initiative has provided for people in Derbyshire.
My hon. Friend spoke eloquently about the volunteers who participate in community transport schemes in her constituency. I pay tribute to them, and to others involved in such schemes in urban as well as rural areas throughout the country. They provide a vivid example of what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has described as the need for more people to give to their neighbours--to give their time, as well as their money, to their communities, and in doing so to build a stronger, more inclusive community for us all. I am particularly aware of the invaluable work done by volunteers in regard to community transport initiatives, because--until recently, when she became too frail to drive--my 83-year-old mother was a volunteer driver for a community transport scheme.
My hon. Friend mentioned a study by consultants that was commissioned by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions. My hon. Friend the Minister for Transport in London, who has joined me for the debate, assures me that she and her colleagues will consider the consultants' report carefully as part of their review of community transport schemes.
Mr. McLoughlin:
When does the Minister expect the Department to complete its review?
Ms Hewitt:
It will do so as quickly as possible. The matter is complex, and my colleagues and their officials wish to consult and reflect on it. An announcement will be made in due course.
The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Mr. Loughton) spoke of the need for community bus services, and the need for community transport to be put on the same footing as commercial operators. Like the hon. Member for West Derbyshire, he referred to what he described as the precedent set by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. He is wrong: although the RNLI is exempt from fuel duty and receives a rebate, that is not because it is a charity doing deserving work but because all sea-going vessels are exempt from fuel duty under a European Union directive. The RNLI has not been singled out for special treatment, and it does not set a precedent in that regard.
Mr. Loughton:
I believe that the RNLI has been exempt since 1964, which probably predates an EU directive. Moreover, it provides a community service, both on sea and on land. That is the principle that we were trying to extend.
Ms Hewitt:
I am grateful for that clarification. Of course the RNLI provides an invaluable community service, and it is one of the many charities whose work we wish to support; but the fact is that a European Union directive exempts all vessels, and another exempts aircraft. I am afraid that, in 1999, the hon. Gentleman cannot support what he has said.
Mr. Loughton:
Will the Minister confirm that, in 1964, there was no European Union directive and that the RNLI
Ms Hewitt:
I was trying merely to bring the hon. Gentleman up to date with the position as it exists now.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) also spoke about the Government's review of community and voluntary transport schemes. That is an important point. As I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley recognised, it is to that review and the work of the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions that she and other sponsors of the Bill need to direct their concern and efforts.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon stressed the technical difficulties with the Bill. They are real. They are not mere matters of drafting that can be sorted out in Committee. As the hon. Member for West Derbyshire recognised--indeed, admitted, when he courteously came to see me in anticipation of the debate--although his objective was to secure an extension of the fuel duty rebate for commercial bus operators to operators of community and voluntary transport schemes, his Bill was directed at the operation of fuel duty itself and would require the fuel that was made available for community and voluntary transport schemes to be exempted from duty. That is not a matter that can simply be sorted out in Committee. As the hon. Member for West Derbyshire recognises, nor can the operation, or possible extension, of the fuel duty rebate be properly dealt with in a private Member's Bill. That problem goes to the heart of the Bill. It is not simply a technical difficulty to be ironed out upstairs in Committee.
Mr. Maclean:
I have listened carefully to the hon. Lady. I accept that it may not be a matter for a private Member's Bill, but will she accept an amendment to the Finance Bill, or preferably introduce a relevant and appropriate amendment to the Finance Bill, so that the
"Conventional public transport cannot always meet the diverse accessibility needs of all in our communities, particularly the needs of disabled people and those who live in remoter rural areas."
I am a little surprised to hear from the official Opposition such concern for rural transport, given that the Conservative Government did so much to undermine rural transport. It is because of our concern for people living in rural communities that we have allocated £50 million a year to rural transport.
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