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Mr. Clive Soley (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush): Is not what the right hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major) said an example of the importance of this country having a positive approach to Europe? If we have a negative and divided approach, the problems of which we have been aware for some time will inevitably continue. We need a strong and independent check on fraud, and a body dealing with standards and privileges for Commissioners. Perhaps at this stage we ought to record our thanks to Pauline Green and Alan Donnelly for the lead that they have taken on this matter.
The Prime Minister: The committee of inquiry would not have been set up but for the motion, which came not merely from the Labour group, but from British Labour members of that group. Secondly, the committee of inquiry will make a further report shortly. We should implement that as well.
Mr. William Cash (Stone): The Prime Minister says that we must get the reforms right. Why can he not match the scale of this crisis with a statement dealing with the real problems facing this country? Is he prepared to go to the Berlin summit in a few days and make a proposal to the other Heads of Government to deal with the real questions, which relate to the loss of national democracy, accountability and the means of calling people toaccount? Is he prepared to table amendments at the intergovernmental conference that is due shortly to ensure that we get the balance right, and bring back to this House and to the other national Parliaments the democracy and accountability that the electors of Europe and this country truly deserve?
The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman will no doubt get a lot of support for that view from his own side. He believes that Britain should not be a member of the European Union at all. The idea that if I adopted his position on Europe I would go to Berlin with great influence is absurd: I would go there with no influence at all. If he had his way, I would not even be invited to Berlin and to the conference.
Mr. Cash: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: I can take points of order only at the end of statements, and I have three statements to deal with today.
The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman caused quite enough difficulty for my predecessor without causing
difficulty for me as well. We have a fundamental disagreement about how to get the best for Britain out of Europe. He would do it by effectively taking Britain out of Europe; I believe that we should stay in Europe, fight for our interests as other countries do, and build consensus and alliances for the changes that we want.
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow): My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister will recollect that when he led the Labour delegation to Strasbourg, I was the Labour member on the Budget Committee and on the Budget Sub-Committee dealing with fraud. In the light of experience, especially of the Friuli earthquake compensation, does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister accept that it is very difficult to get politicians to have anything to do with fraud investigations into their own country, not least if they are Italians? No Italian MEP would have anything to do with the Friuli investigation. Does he agree that if an investigation is to be effective, it will have to be on a European, rather than on a country-by-country basis, and that there will have to be a strong, independent investigative team?
The Prime Minister: I will not pray my hon. Friend's remarks in aid for my new strategy for the Italian alliance. My hon. Friend is right to say that there is a problem with countries investigating their own institutions to determine whether fraud has occurred, but that is surely precisely the reason why we need an independent investigative fraud office, which is what we proposed and what I now believe will be accepted.
Mr. David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden): In June and July last year, before the furore that led to yesterday's events, the Public Accounts Committee published a report criticising the fraud and waste in Europe. I called for an independent anti-fraud office, with teeth, to be set up. The Commission dismissed that as unnecessary. Does the Prime Minister accept that an anti-fraud office that will do the most to stop the rot at the centre of Europe will be on the Danish, Dutch and British model: independent in funding, appointment and activities, with absolute access to the information in all the institutions in Europe, and reporting back to European taxpayers through the Council of Ministers?
The Prime Minister: I do indeed believe that the body should be fully independent and allowed to carry out its functions in a way that establishes its own credibility, quite apart from anything else. That is the best thing for Europe. The standing of the European Commission has been damaged, quite rightly, and the best way for us to respond is to act now. The right hon. Gentleman is right to say that the Public Accounts Committee made that proposal before, but the difference is that this time--I found this in the discussions in Petersberg a few weeks ago and, before that, in Vienna--it will find an echo right across Europe.
Mr. Robert Sheldon (Ashton-under-Lyne): I support what the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr. Davis), the current Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, said. I want to refer to events as they unfolded late last night. Is not it clear that the responses of Jacques Santer and Mrs. Cresson were wholly inadequate? The report found fraud, nepotism and mismanagement, and the
minimum response from those singled out should be not only immediate resignation, but no possibility of reinstatement.
The Prime Minister: I agree that the response was wholly inadequate, which is why we have called for the measures that I outlined today.
Sir Brian Mawhinney (North-West Cambridgeshire): Did the Prime Minister hear Sir Leon Brittan this morning, saying, without making any excuse, that one of the problems that the Commission had was that national Governments asked it to take on more than it was equipped to handle? Does he accept that if, in his new contract, he were to take the opportunity for reform by circumscribing the activities of the Commission and the pressure put on it by national Governments to do more, not as a cover for disengagement but as a genuine reform, he would carry the support of all parties in the House?
The Prime Minister: It is worth considering how we describe the functions of the Commission, although I suspect that even those who are most insistent that we remove some of its activities would want, in other circumstances, to start adding responsibilities. It is necessary to look root and branch at the activities we want the Commission to undertake and how it undertakes them. I hope that we can have a sensible debate across the House, because that would be in the interests of this country.
Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield): Is my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister aware that although the two British Commissioners were apparently cleared completely of any charge against them, they were collectively responsible for the work of the Commission? Will he take the opportunity to make one significant reform--which is entirely in his hands--and give the House of Commons the opportunity to vote for and appoint the British Commissioners in Brussels? I wrote to him on that point today and legislative provision for it is contained in the Crown Prerogatives (Parliamentary Control) Bill, which has support on both sides of the House and would be a significant way to spread power from the few--indeed from the individual--to the many of the House of Commons.
The Prime Minister: I am afraid that I cannot offer my right hon. Friend any solace on that last point. In respect of his first point, I have looked at the report carefully and neither of the two British Commissioners was personally criticised or involved in any shape or form in the specific cases that were examined. Therefore, it would be wrong if we were to single out our Commissioners for blame in those circumstances.
Mr. David Curry (Skipton and Ripon): Is it not curious that the one word that did not pass the Prime Minister's lips was Parliament? As a democratically elected leader, does he not believe that he should discuss with his fellow Heads of Government how the European Parliament and national Parliaments can co-operate rather than compete to represent the people's interests in Europe and achieve genuine accountability? The Prime Minister mentioned a new President. Is he suggesting bringing
forward the appointment of the whole of the new Commission or merely appointing a temporary stop-gap between now and next January?
The Prime Minister: I have said that I believe that the President of the Commission should stand down as soon as possible and that we should put the new Commission in place as soon as possible. I am here, being accountable to Parliament through the statement I am giving, but when I described longer-term reform, I had in mind the clutch of issues that we raised in Cardiff during our presidency, which included the need for better co-ordination between the European Parliament and national Parliaments. Because Europe has those powers, the more scrutiny to which it is subjected and the better the debate between the European Parliament and the national Parliaments and Governments, the better it is for democracy. However, I would stress, as I said to the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell), that--I suppose probably all Prime Ministers say this--we must take account of the fact that the Council of Ministers is also a democratically accountable body, in the sense that each Prime Minister goes home and is accountable to his or her Parliament.
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