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Mr. Bob Russell (Colchester): The thrust of the statement is to be welcomed, as is the fact that the Home Office and the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions are working together. Perhaps it would be better still if other Departments were brought in--the Department for Education and Employment and the Department of Health are two obvious examples.
Can the Home Secretary tell the House how much of the doubled crime that was experienced under the 18 years of Conservative Government will be eaten into by the measures that he announced today? When does he expect us to get back to the 1979 level that the Conservative Government inherited?
There is concern that the funding of the partnerships depends on local authorities and police forces working in partnership. Does the Home Secretary agree that local authorities are already underfunded, and that the measures that he has announced this year will lead to the police being underfunded? Although it is true that the number of police officers rose under the total period of the previous Conservative Government, it has fallen in the last few years. Does the Home Secretary agree that the number of police officers now is less than it was when he launched his "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" campaign?
I am interested in the crime reduction programme. Can the Home Secretary give an assurance that effective projects which started under the safer cities programme will continue and not be shelved?
Finally, is the Home Secretary seriously trying to tell people that CCTV cameras can replace the bobby on the beat?
Mr. Straw:
To take the hon. Gentleman's last point first--which picks up a question asked by the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler)--no one is suggesting that CCTV should replace officers on the beat; rather, we are suggesting that it complements their work. CCTV has been successful in reducing crime in town centres and housing estates because it is literally like having a police officer on the beat with eyes in the back of his or her head and it provides an incontrovertible record of what has happened. CCTV is enormously important in providing good evidence for the police for prosecutions, in acting as a significant deterrent--and, as the hon. Gentleman will have seen if he has been in control rooms--in enabling the police to deploy their resources far better than ever before, for example where disturbances occur late on a Friday or a Saturday night. The two are therefore complementary.
A choice has to be made at the margin about how the additional resources should be spent, and we do not resile from that. Such choices must be made on the basis of the best evidence. The hon. Gentleman--like my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin)--picks up on the Conservative Government's record. It should be borne in mind that, when police numbers rose in the 1980s, we saw the largest rise in crime that Britain has ever experienced. We should consider whether there is the direct relationship between the number of police officers and the level of recorded crime that Opposition Members insinuate.
We accept that better co-ordination with other Departments is needed. The hon. Gentleman will know that health and education departments are partners at a local level in the crime and disorder partnerships, and we are working closely with the other Departments at a national level.
The hon. Gentleman asked me rashly to name the day when crime will be back to the 1979 level. I have not promised to do so, so I shall not take up his offer. However, I have been set the challenging target by the Prime Minister to bring vehicle crime down by 30 per cent. during the next five years, and I have been promised an imaginative career move if I fail.
Mr. Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton):
Is my right hon. Friend aware that it was futile niggling of the kind that we have just heard from the Tory Front-Bench spokesman that led to the Conservative vote in my constituency falling to 4,000 at the general election, and to the total absence of Conservative councillors from Manchester city council? That is why my constituents look to my right hon. Friend to deal with the serious problems of crime from which they have been suffering all these years.
We welcome what my right hon. Friend said about burglaries, CCTV and so on, but my constituents will be looking most to the effect of the anti-social behaviour orders. Day after day I receive letters and approaches from constituents about rowdy gangs and abominable neighbours, including named people who move from street to street, causing havoc as they go.
My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin) is right in saying that we will judge my right hon. Friend's announcements by the effects. Is he aware that we shall look to those effects to take away the terrible misery from which ordinary people suffer day after day as a result of such offences?
Mr. Straw:
In place of a futile niggle, perhaps I may be allowed a sycophantic difference of emphasis from my right hon. Friend: surely the real reason for the fall in the Conservative vote in Gorton was the excellence of my right hon. Friend's reputation. Knowing my right hon. Friend as I do, I am surprised that there were even 4,000 Tory voters.
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his welcome of the anti-social behaviour orders which are built partly on the experience of the people in Manchester and Salford. I have visited many of the areas that have suffered in that way. I know that Manchester city council is one of the authorities that are preparing themselves for the introduction of the orders. It has one of the best records in the country of taking out injunctions against its
own tenants, but the orders are important because they will be available for use against people regardless of housing tenure.
My right hon. Friend is also correct that people are waiting for the beneficial effects of the orders. Their success will depend on the enthusiasm of the police and the local authorities in applying for orders and, in some cases, on the courage of local people in making applications to the police in the first place. It will also depend on how far the judiciary--magistrates and the Crown courts--are alert to the need to make those orders. I am pleased that we have had discussions with the Magistrates Association as well as with the higher judiciary to ensure that they understand the emphasis that the House has placed on the effectiveness of the orders.
Sir Brian Mawhinney (North-West Cambridgeshire):
Talking of Pauline conversions, will the Home Secretary accept that I will not unduly delay the House by reminding it of the number of times in the first year of this Parliament that he pooh-poohed the effectiveness of closed circuit television because the Chancellor would not give him any money? Now that the Chancellor has given him some money, he is all in favour of closed circuit television. I hope that this is the real Home Secretary.
The right hon. Gentleman talked of outputs. Will he tell the House what reduction in burglary, car theft and anti-social behaviour he wants to achieve, and over what period, in order to feel that that use of the money has been justified, and that it has been money well spent in terms of law and order?
Mr. Straw:
The right hon. Gentleman is entitled to tweak me on that point, but I did not pooh-pooh the value of closed circuit television at all. Indeed, I have been through all the times that I used to raise the matter with him when he sat on the Front Bench, and I raised it time after time. I could not come up with the money--here, he must take the admonition--because we did not have the money; we were following the Conservatives' spending plans and no money had been allocated. That is absolutely true and he knows it.
The right hon. Gentleman asked me what reduction in crime we anticipate. We are setting a national target for reduction in vehicle crime of 30 per cent., which is a substantial reduction and something on which we as a Government will be judged. In particular, I will be judged on that, especially if I fail, although I do not suppose that anybody will notice if I succeed. We have set a national target partly because the factors affecting vehicle crime often involve national policy--for example, the design of vehicles and co-operation in and co-ordination of policies by car park groups--to which vehicle crime is directly susceptible.
Burglary and robbery are much more susceptible to local strategies, which is why we have not set national targets. We are inviting local police and local communities to set those targets, and they are doing so, but we shall also judge the effectiveness of the individual programmes within the crime reduction programme--for example, that to reduce burglary--very carefully. If they
are not working according to the target that has been set for the individual programme we will withdraw the money from similar programmes.
Mr. Robin Corbett (Birmingham, Erdington):
May I tell my right hon. Friend that communities all over my constituency and the rest of Birmingham will welcome the anti-social behaviour orders, which come into force from 1 April, alongside other more positive measures to encourage young people to live more fulfilling lives? However, does he agree that the critical ingredient in combating crime in our communities is not the number of police officers or, indeed, the level of resources that they have, important as they are, but the active involvement of people within communities in retrieving the safety and security that they have had stolen from them?
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