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Mr. Straw: My hon. Friend is entirely right about that. If we do not have the communities on side, no amount of police officers or CCTV will solve the problem of disorder. Moreover, and to emphasise the point, we know that, where there are high levels of incivility in an area, the chance of people suffering, for example, a violent crime is four times greater than in other similar areas. If we deal with disorder, we can cut a great deal of crime.
Mr. Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire): The Home Secretary seemed to come perilously close to suggesting that there was an inverse relationship between the number of police officers and the incidence of crime. In fact, the opposite is the case: there is a positive relationship between the number of police officers and the ability not only to prevent but to solve crimes.
Does the Home Secretary accept that much of what he said will not translate readily into provision for rural areas, where the incidence of closed circuit television cameras and the like will inevitably be low? It is the number of police officers that is instrumental. In Cambridgeshire, for example, only by maintaining the increased levels that have been accompanied by a substantial reduction in crime over the past couple of years can we achieve a further reduction.
Mr. Straw:
Many rural areas have done very well out of the Budget increases that I announced earlier. For instance, Cambridgeshire--part of which the hon. Gentleman represents--has been allowed a 4.5 per cent. spending increase in the next year. That is more than adequate to maintain the number of police officers and to secure investment, especially given the efficiency savings we expect the police to make not as a result of the number of officers, but in a number of other areas in which the service has not been efficient in the past.
I did not suggest for a second that there was an inverse relationship between the number of police officers and the rise of crime under the last Administration. What I drew to the attention of thinking Conservatives, of whom I believe the hon. Gentleman to be one--[Interruption.] He went to a good school, same as me. Anyway, what I drew to the attention of thinking Conservatives was the fact that there was not necessarily a direct relationship. We have learned something from the Conservatives about the efficiency of public services; they seem to have forgotten what they learned about the same thing when they were in office.
Dr. George Turner (North-West Norfolk):
I welcome the general measures announced by my right hon. Friend,
Mr. Straw:
I accept what my hon. Friend says, not least because I visited his constituency about 18 months ago. On a wet Friday evening in King's Lynn, 700 people turned up to hear me speak about law and order, which suggests either that they were very worried about the situation or that there was nothing else to do in King's Lynn. I trust that it was the first, not the second.
As I saw during that visit, there are indeed serious peaks of crime in some areas, which are disguised by the overall figures. I am pleased to say, however, that next year Norfolk will have a 5.5 per cent. increase in resources. That reflects our view of the importance of giving proper resources to semi-rural counties such as Norfolk.
Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough):
I welcome the use of anti-social behaviour orders in the criminal justice system. Such orders, however, are not akin to civil injunctions, as the Home Secretary said; they are part of the criminal justice system. Is the right hon. Gentleman content that it is constitutionally appropriate for the police or applicant local authorities to play an active part in the sentencing process? Only they may consent to a reduction in the two-year period of an anti-social behaviour order, as the right hon. Gentleman will see if he looks at his own Act. Does he think it appropriate for the police and applicants to be party to sentencing? It would surely be more appropriate for that to be entirely in the gift of the courts.
On a previous occasion, the Home Secretary was kind enough to admit that the Conservative Government had done great things with regard to the introduction of closed circuit television. Will he, as a Labour politician, join me, as a Conservative politician, in kicking the back end of Oadby and Wigston Liberal Democrat borough council, and in inviting it to apply to his Government--it refused to apply to mine--for CCTV funding for the hard-pressed people of the borough?
Mr. Straw:
I am always happy to take part with Conservatives in the re-education of the Liberal Democrats--on CCTV and many other subjects. Of course, one of the reasons why all of us--I hope--are sensitive to the issue of anti-social behaviour and to problems of law and order is because of the constituency link. I make that point just in case anyone is thinking otherwise.
I acknowledge and commend the previous Government's work, for example, on safer cities. There is little point in calling into question the record of a previous Administration where we support it. I do not intend to do that.
I do not accept what the hon. and learned Gentleman says about the structure of the anti-social behaviour orders. The only point where, as it were, the applicant--the local authority or police--could play a part in what he describes as the sentencing process under the orders, is where there is an application to the court to lift the order within the two-year minimum period, but the order itself is not a sentence of the court. A sentence of the court arises only if there is a breach of the order. That is an arrestable offence. A breach of an order will be dealt with in the normal way for either-way offences. The police and local authorities will play no direct part in the sentence that either the magistrates or the Crown court judge hands down.
Mr. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire):
May I in the warmest terms congratulate the Home Secretary on his statement on crime reduction? I do so as a member of the Magistrates Association, as former chair of the North-West Leicestershire Safer Communities Forum, a forerunner of the statutory partnerships, and as chair of the Ashby-de-la-Zouch CCTV scheme, which installed cameras in that town.
It is true that the existence of cameras can have a positive effect. Does my right hon. Friend nevertheless accept that there is a need to look at the dispersal of crime that can arise with CCTV, and to tackle peripheral issues such as improving street lighting in car parks, so that the quality of the image that is produced by the camera is satisfactory? Does he accept that local authorities that are cash strapped--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
Order. That is far too long. Mr. Straw.
Mr. Straw:
I accept what my hon. Friend says. Let me make it clear that not all the money need be spent directly on CCTV. As my hon. Friend says, if CCTV is to be effective, other things have to be done as well--for example, improvements in street lighting and action to ensure that crime is not displaced. One of the good things about the latest round of cash for CCTV is that it will be available, for example, on housing estates to which some acquisitive crime may have been displaced by CCTV in town centres.
Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley):
Will the Home Secretary ensure that rural areas get their fair share of any money that is available? The money should go not just to areas such as Longridge in my constituency, to finance CCTV and other schemes, but to rural parts--of the right hon. Gentleman's constituency; of Lancaster, Burnley and Pendle; and all round our area. Rural areas need their fair share of the money as well.
I know that the Home Secretary has a reputation for being a hard Home Secretary and I believe him to be so.
Mr. Evans:
It is a compliment. Having that sort of reputation, the Home Secretary may not be popular with many Labour Members, but may I encourage him not only have a reputation for being hard, but to be hard where he has not been so far? Boot camps have proved very successful. Will he look again at that idea? A rigorous
Mr. Straw:
I did not hear the first consonant when the hon. Gentleman said "hard", and various alternative expressions were running through my mind. I accept, of course, what he said about the importance of rural areas being covered by the provisions: it is a mistake to believe that only urban areas have high crime levels. Although crime is disturbing wherever it occurs, a sudden upsurge of serious disorder or acquisitive crime in a peaceful rural area can be very disturbing. I shall certainly give an undertaking to ensure that the money is used across the country. Which areas benefit from it will depend on the quality of bids. I hope that Ribble Valley district council--to name one council--will be able to make a high-quality bid.
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