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7.15 pm
Dawn Primarolo: The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) complimented the staff at the family credit unit in Preston. He commented that they were excellent civil servants, as indeed they are. He should be confident of the work that will be undertaken to introduce the working families tax credit, because it will be done by the same diligent, hard-working, precise civil servants as the family credit unit transfers to the Inland Revenue. The hon. Gentleman spoke on the same themes as other Opposition Members--stigma and privacy.
I should say at the outset that I shall disappoint the Opposition again by asking the House to reject the amendment--although, as the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr. Gibb) gained a concession in Committee when the position of the apostrophe in the word "families" was corrected, we will be even stevens after this.
Although I shall deal with the issues relating to stigma, I should remind hon. Members that the benefit is intended to reinforce work incentives and to reward work. The hon. Member for Gainsborough said that there was no evidence of stigma, but he went on to say that he had evidence. That consisted of what various organisations believed might happen.
Dawn Primarolo:
I want to quote some research findings, because the hon. Member for Gainsborough asked about that. I refer him to a paper by Jeffrey Liebman for the Rowntree Trust, who quotes a study undertaken by McKay and Marsh entitled "Why didn't they claim?," carried out on behalf of the Department of Social Security. Liebman states:
In a paper entitled "Lessons about tax-benefit integration from the US earned income tax credit experience", which was also published by Rowntree, Liebman states in relation to credit administered through the tax system:
Dawn Primarolo:
I must make progress. The hon. Gentleman had a note passed to him about sitting down, so he will understand that progress needs to be made this evening.
We also heard about privacy and the fears that people's private concerns would be disclosed. The hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb) said that two thirds of employers verify the earnings of family credit claimants.
Employers are already under a common law duty to maintain the trust and confidentiality of their employees. That is potentially a wide duty, and the Data Protection Act 1998 will extend the protection of personal information. Itemised pay statements are already prepared by some employers, and they are treated as confidential matters between the employer and the employee. There is no reason, and none was advanced, why that tried and trusted system would fall apart as a result of the working families tax credit.
Opposition Members have a perverse view of the world. They believe that employers will do their utmost to frustrate the payment of benefit, to undermine their employees, to disregard instructions from the Inland Revenue and to make the lives of lone parents a misery and their workers' lives impossible. I do not dispute that there are some employers who may behave in that way, but the overwhelming majority do not. There is no reason
to believe that they will do so in future, because that would be bad for their relationships with their employees, on which their firms depend.
Under the working families tax credit provisions--this goes to the heart of the amendments--the major payment will be made through the pay packet. The application forms are straightforward. I know that Conservative Members have seen those forms and I have to tell them that anyone who thinks that a family credit form is easy to fill in has clearly never attempted to complete one--they are complex and very long. To the credit of Inland Revenue officials, the new forms are more straightforward and open.
A lone parent in paid employment will receive the payment through the wage packet. If both parents are working, one will receive the payment through the wage packet, and they will be able to choose which. When one parent is working and one is not, they will be able to choose which receives the payment. The form makes it clear that there is no pressure about who should receive the payment; it will be up to the couple to decide. I have every confidence in the maturity of couples; they will be able to take that decision about managing their household finances.
It is nonsense to use strong language about lone parents being forced into doing something when the working families tax credit will give them such enormous benefit. Conservative Members describe the system as impossible to operate, but they have failed to read and understand the Bill and they have failed to understand the powers that will protect the employee and ensure that the employer delivers the tax credit.
I ask the House to reject the amendment and support the Government in introducing the Bill.
Mr. Gibb:
The Minister forgets that the overwhelming majority of employers in this country are small employers. More than half the employees in this country are employed by people who employ fewer than 50 people. In small companies information spreads by word of mouth. Conservative Members have tried to explain that problem to the Government, but it seems that what we have said has landed on deaf ears.
The Minister asked what evidence we have that the working families tax credit will increase stigma. I cited in evidence a number of organisations--the National Council for One Parent Families, which represents lone parents; the CBI, which represents employers; and the TUC, which represents a large number of employees. If they do not know whether people will be stigmatised under the Minister's scheme, who does? I believe that the views of those organisations provide ample evidence to show that stigma will increase.
The Minister talked about take-up being a measure not of stigma but of need, but what measure would she use to determine whether stigma had increased or decreased under the new working families tax credit system? A 91 per cent. take-up rate is, to anyone with any common sense, a clear indication that people do not mind claiming family credit. If she has a better measure for judging whether the working families tax credit will increase or
decrease stigma, let us have it. Let us have target rates for take-up and other objectives that the Government could set out to determine whether stigma has increased.
The Minister's response will disappoint not only me. It will disappoint many thousands of lone parents and working people on low incomes who have to work hard and struggle to make ends meet as they bring up a family. The hon. Lady will inflict on them embarrassment and stigma because she misunderstands the real world of work.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 164, Noes 296.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Mr. Gibb:
I beg to move amendment No. 8, in page 3, line 35, at end insert
"McKay and Marsh's interview study of family credit claimants reports that few families were entirely comfortable with the idea of claiming income-related in-work benefits."
The hon. Gentleman conflates take-up and stigma. Take-up is determined by need. Stigma is a feeling imposed on people when they make their applications.
"The advantages of such a reform . . . are that workers would be freed from the stigma of the welfare system".
He goes on to say that
"removing stigma could be an important advantage of integrating in-work benefits into the tax system--in particular, workers who see themselves as self-sufficient and free of Government handouts may be less likely to go back on welfare in the future."
That deals with the Opposition's comments about stigma.
AYES
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Baker, Norman
Ballard, Jackie
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Body, Sir Richard
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia
Brake, Tom
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Burnett, John
Burns, Simon
Burstow, Paul
Butterfill, John
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Chidgey, David
Chope, Christopher
Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Colvin, Michael
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cotter, Brian
Cran, James
Curry, Rt Hon David
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Day, Stephen
Donaldson, Jeffrey
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Evans, Nigel
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Fearn, Ronnie
Forsythe, Clifford
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fraser, Christopher
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gibb, Nick
Gill, Christopher
Goodlad, Rt Hon Sir Alastair
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorrie, Donald
Gray, James
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hammond, Philip
Harris, Dr Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, John
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, Charles (Ross Skye)
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kirkwood, Archy
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, Oliver
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maginnis, Ken
Major, Rt Hon John
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Maude, Rt Hon Francis
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Moore, Michael
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)
Moss, Malcolm
Nicholls, Patrick
Norman, Archie
Oaten, Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Prior, David
Randall, John
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Rendel, David
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Rowe, Andrew (Faversham)
Ruffley, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
St Aubyn, Nick
Sanders, Adrian
Sayeed, Jonathan
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Soames, Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strangford)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thompson, William
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Tyler, Paul
Tyrie, Andrew
Wallace, James
Wardle, Charles
Waterson, Nigel
Webb, Steve
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Willis, Phil
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Woodward, Shaun
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Sir David Madel and
Mrs. Caroline Spelman.
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Ashton, Joe
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Borrow, David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Rt Hon Gordon
(Dunfermline E)
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Mrs Christine
Caborn, Richard
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Canavan, Dennis
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cooper, Yvette
Corbett, Robin
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Darvill, Keith
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, John
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Brian H
Doran, Frank
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Fyfe, Maria
Galloway, George
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Grogan, John
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hanson, David
Healey, John
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hewitt, Ms Patricia
Hill, Keith
Hoey, Kate
Home Robertson, John
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Kemp, Fraser
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kingham, Ms Tess
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lawrence, Ms Jackie
Laxton, Bob
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Linton, Martin
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Lock, David
Love, Andrew
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
Macdonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Meale, Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W)
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mountford, Kali
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Eddie
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Mrs Diana
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pope, Greg
Powell, Sir Raymond
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, Rt Hon John
Primarolo, Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
Rapson, Syd
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)
Ryan, Ms Joan
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Ms Helen
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr Howard
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Todd, Mark
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vaz, Keith
Vis, Dr Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Ms Claire
Wareing, Robert N
Watts, David
White, Brian
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Mr. Jim Dowd and
Jane Kennedy.
'provided that the employer has more than 9 employees'.
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