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Ms Armstrong: The money that Ofsted, the SSI and Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Schools, Wales need is catered for in the legislation that established and govern those institutions. The clause relates to the ability of the Audit Commission to work effectively with those organisations. [Interruption.] I wish to goodness that the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire would stop winking; this is a serious business. [Interruption.] Opposition Members seek a serious response but they treat this issue as if it were a joke. It is public schoolboy humour yet again. I wish that they would grow up.
Clause 31 provides that where the Bill, by virtue of any provisions within it that have financial implications, leads to the Secretary of State's paying increased sums under other enactments, moneys shall be made available from Parliament to meet such increases. It also provides that any costs that the Secretary of State incurs in discharging his functions under the Bill should be met by Parliament.
I hope that the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth)--I was about to call him the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire, but the right hon. Gentleman has changed his constituency--now understands the measure. He asked me to attempt to mould his mind, but that would defy anyone. I have heard of his exploits at Glasgow university, where Elvis Presley was his hero and he was the magnificent leader of a tribe of rockers or teddy boys. We look forward to him displaying his teddy boy behaviour today.
Clause 31, however, happens to be important in a number of practical ways. It will allow, for instance, for the provision of funds to best value authorities to meet any new costs in fees for best value inspections which they incur under the Bill. It will also be used to ensure that where best value inspections are funded by central Government grant, moneys can be paid to the Audit Commission for that purpose. It will also allow for the
Secretary of State to be reimbursed for costs that he incurs, for example, by using his intervention powers. Those are three practical, important examples of why the money resolution is important.
Sir Paul Beresford:
I thank the right hon. Lady for giving way now that she is getting to the facts instead of throwing brickbats that have nothing to do with the resolution. I welcome the fact that she is moving more funds to local government to help councils with proposals that they anticipate will require heavy expenditure, but has she any idea of the costs involved? Will she give us ballpark figures? Is there any way in which the Secretary of State will be able to impose limitations on that expenditure, such as an annual ceiling imposed by order or a percentage-based ceiling?
Ms Armstrong:
I cannot, in all honesty, give the hon. Gentleman the figures that he seeks. If I attempted to do so, he would say that they were not believable because we are not in a position to give them. In the same way that we and the previous Government negotiated with local government and the Audit Commission, we shall make the figures clear, and we are discussing with the Audit Commission its expectations of those figures. As the hon. Gentleman has implied, we would need regularly to revise those figures. I assure him that we intend to make public those agreements and to apply the principles of best value to any money involved.
Mr. Jenkin:
I am now extremely confused because in Committee, on 9 February, in answer to my question, the Minister said:
Ms Armstrong:
We made clear in Committee precisely what we believe the increased costs will be, but we have not yet agreed the exact balance between the Audit Commission and local government, and we know that it may have to vary in particular circumstances. We want to introduce clear guidelines so that the House and people outside will know what is happening year by year. I honestly cannot give anyone those figures today, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that I have always tried to be absolutely straight with hon. Members.
It is important that there is a balance between the amount of central Government grant and the amount to be contributed by local government. We discussed that fully in Committee. We discussed the importance of a balance that enabled both elements to be part of the settlement. That is how we intend to proceed.
Clause 31 will enable the introduction of the duty of best value in such a way as to avoid penalising best value authorities in terms of the financial resources available
to them. It will also ensure that the Secretary of State has the resources that he needs properly to discharge his functions in accordance with best value. All parties will therefore be able to meet their legal obligations without fear of suffering financial disadvantage.
Question put:--
The House divided: Ayes 345, Noes 39.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly agreed to.
Resolved,
"We anticipate that the annual costs of a strengthened audit and inspection framework will be in the order of an additional£50 million a year, once the best value framework is fully operational."
When asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) what that £50 million refers to, she replied:
"We took account of that in the comprehensive spending review."--[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 9 February 1999; c. 243.]
However, we still do not know what that £50 million refers to, and I am sure that if the Minister takes this opportunity to clarify that point, the House will be grateful.
AYES
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Ballard, Jackie
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Borrow, David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom
Brand, Dr Peter
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnett, John
Burstow, Paul
Butler, Mrs Christine
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies
(NE Fife)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Cann, Jamie
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Chidgey, David
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Corbett, Robin
Corston, Ms Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, John
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Brian H
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Fearn, Ronnie
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Fyfe, Maria
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Harvey, Nick
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, Ms Patricia
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Iddon, Dr Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Keetch, Paul
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Charles (Ross Skye)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kirkwood, Archy
Kumar, Dr Ashok
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lawrence, Ms Jackie
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Linton, Martin
Livingstone, Ken
Livsey, Richard
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Lock, David
Love, Andrew
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter
Marek, Dr John
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Meale, Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moore, Michael
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W)
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
Oaten, Mark
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Eddie
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Sir Raymond
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quinn, Lawrie
Radice, Giles
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd
Raynsford, Nick
Rendel, David
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)
Ryan, Ms Joan
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Ms Helen
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stott, Roger
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Vaz, Keith
Ward, Ms Claire
Wareing, Robert N
Watts, David
Webb, Steve
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Willis, Phil
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woolas, Phil
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Mr. Keith Hill and
Mr. David Jamieson.
NOES
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baldry, Tony
Bercow, John
Blunt, Crispin
Body, Sir Richard
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Colvin, Michael
Fabricant, Michael
Flight, Howard
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gray, James
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John
Horam, John
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hunter, Andrew
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Mates, Michael
Page, Richard
Randall, John
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Soames, Nicholas
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Viggers, Peter
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Yeo, Tim
Mr. Eric Forth and
Mr. David Wilshire.
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Local Government Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any expenditure incurred by the Secretary of State in making grants to the Audit Commission for Local Authorities and the National Health Service in England and Wales.
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