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Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East): President Milosevic is a loser. He was a loser in Bosnia, when he could have emerged with a much better deal, and an excellent deal was available to him at Rambouillet. Ultimately, he will lose. What lines of communication are still open to him? Is the deal that was on the table at Rambouillet still available to him?
The Deputy Prime Minister: Yes, I assure my hon. Friend that the deal is still available, and everybody would want to see it pursued and achieved. At the moment, we are trying to prevent a humanitarian tragedy in Kosovo. Our lines of communication are the normal ones through the various UN bodies and organisations. We will be available to be informed if there is any change of mind but, at the moment, the NATO action clearly is to prevent such a tragedy and to prevent the Yugoslav authorities from deploying their military might, as they are at the moment.
Mr. Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife): This is clearly not the occasion upon which to probe the Government on the precise nature of the operations that have been undertaken, or which may be undertaken in future. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that it is right for us to express our support for our military, and to express the hope for the safe return of all the aircraft and aircrew involved in the operations this evening? Does he agree that other, wider issues can be left until the debate tomorrow? Is it not right that the House should be in sombre mood, because to ask our young men and women to risk their lives in aid of political objectives is a sombre and anxious request to make of them?
The Deputy Prime Minister said that the scenes had been reminiscent of the middle ages. Have they not also been reminiscent of the second world war, which we believed had been fought to put an end to that kind of repression? Finally, will he confirm that, at any time, Mr. Milosevic has it within his power to bring an end to the operations by bringing an end to his own opposition to the political settlement which remains on the table?
The Deputy Prime Minister:
I am grateful for the right hon. and learned Gentleman's expression of support and for his understanding of the difficulty concerning how much information can be given on these occasions, which I am sure the House fully appreciates. We hope for the safe return of our aircraft, and if that happens in the latter minutes of this discussion, I shall of course inform the House. Everyone would want that to be the case and will bear in mind the great contribution of our soldiers and aircrew.
This is indeed a sombre moment and, on reflection, there are comparisons with the lead-up to the second world war, but we would do best to keep those memories in the back of our mind and learn the lesson that if we appease dictators they go on to create even greater
mayhem and repression. We must say to Mr. Milosevic, "You started it, and you have the chance to end it. We have to make it clear that we consider your actions repressive and offensive. We want to stop them, and that is what we are doing with our NATO forces."
Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield):
Is the Deputy Prime Minister aware that the only body in the world that can deal with an humanitarian crisis is the United Nations itself, by organising a peace conference without the threat or the use of force and providing aid on the necessary scale? Is he also aware that NATO does not act on behalf of the international community, and never has done?
People of my generation, who lived through the 1930s and the 1940s, feel a sense of utter shame and disgust that the British Government should be breaking its solemn commitments to the United Nations and launching air attacks on Serbia, which was praised to the skies during the war, because it was the Serbian resistance to Hitler that gave us the opportunity of the victory that we secured. To demonise Serbia now, when Yugoslavia was deliberately broken up by western policy makers, is to mislead the public into a crusade that does not exist.
The Deputy Prime Minister:
The right hon. Gentleman should bear it in mind that, regardless of whether they were allies many years ago, the Serbs today are murdering an awful lot of people in Kosovo. I understand that he is talking of 50 years ago and the concerns of the 1930s and 1940s, but there were great debates in our movement at that time about Hitler and about hawking one's conscience about. I am bound to say that we were wrong not to have dealt with appeasement at that time, and I hope that we have learned our lesson. That is why we are doing what we are doing today.
Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough):
The whole House is united in condemning repression, from wherever it comes, and pays tribute to our troops. Is the Deputy Prime Minister aware that, despite the constraints that we are naturally under, there is genuine concern about the effect of bombing a sovereign, independent nation, about the innocents who may lose their lives and about what will happen if the bombing fails to shake the dictator's resolve?
Will the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that there can and will be no question of sending in ground troops, and will he inform the House of his plan for the future if bombing fails to achieve its object?
The Deputy Prime Minister:
I think the whole House shares concerns about what may happen, but I have made it clear that the targets are military, not civilian. As for innocent people losing their lives, that is happening to many thousands in Kosovo and was happening throughout the time of negotiations, when the repression of innocent people, many of whom were driven out of their homes, was continuing as we tried to find an agreement. One has to make a judgment.
The Prime Minister made it clear yesterday that we have no intention of sending in ground forces to fight a war in Kosovo. Our forces are in the region to support a settlement, if agreed, and not to fight their way in, which
would require more than 100,000 troops and risk high casualties. There is not general agreement in favour of such action. Our targets are specific. They are basically military and we are clear about what we intend to achieve.
Mr. Frank Cook (Stockton, North):
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the bombing did not start tonight and that bombing has been going on for some considerable time against the Kosovar Albanians? Does he agree that appeals for dialogue, although they have been heeded and continued, are somewhat futile when one party believes that the only useful dialogue is through the barrel of a gun? Does my right hon. Friend agree with the school of thought that Milosevic needed that armed intervention to protect himself from a backlash among his electorate if he made any concessions on Kosovo? In the fervent hope that that proves to be correct as quickly as possible, will my right hon. Friend tell us what measures might be in train quickly to restore normal relations between ourselves and Russia, which may have been adversely affected in the continuing negotiations?
The Deputy Prime Minister:
I think the House will agree with my hon. Friend's comments that a great deal of repression was going on in Kosovo before the bombing and during the negotiation of the UN resolutions that made it clear that the Serbs should desist--they failed to do so. Of course we are concerned about relationships with countries such as Russia. We shall maintain those contacts, and those countries have made it clear, both in the UN and other councils, that they deplore the actions that have been taken. While there may be disagreement with the actions that have been taken by NATO today, there is no doubt that those countries do not support the position put forward by Milosevic and his Government.
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith (Wealden):
I have considerable support for the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman. Compassion for the humanitarian difficulties that have been faced, including massacres, in the past months--almost years--is worthy of our support on humanitarian grounds. When the Deputy Prime Minister says that military installations are being bombed, does that include the ground forces of the Serbian nation? That is the area that causes us great concern. If we are to intervene and the war is to finish, we want to be certain that not only radar installations and airports are destroyed but that Serbian ground forces are rendered useless and cannot intervene.
The Deputy Prime Minister:
I think that the right hon. Gentleman will be aware that on such occasions one does not detail the military targets. That is normal practice. I understand the reasons for his question, but he can be assured that the targets are military ones.
Mr. Dale Campbell-Savours (Workington):
Will my right hon. Friend relay to those pilots who are out there tonight in darkness over Yugoslavia a simple message from the House of Commons? That is that we overwhelmingly support them in their endeavours. They are acting for Britain and we are proud of them.
The Deputy Prime Minister:
My hon. Friend has made it clear in a powerful way that that is exactly what
Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham):
Does the right hon. Gentleman understand the great sense of dismay that many in the House feel? Does he agree that we have gone to war without there being a sufficient national interest, without there being a clear understanding of the strategic and political objectives, without there being a proper exit strategy and without the authority of the House? The right hon. Gentleman and the Government will have the support of the House because the credibility of NATO has been put at issue and because our service men are in action, but we should not have been brought to this pass.
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