| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Bruce: I have tried to demonstrate the Conservative Government's experience of such legislation and I urge the Secretary of State to be very careful. Two of his colleagues have already fallen foul of the employment law, although I am sure that they have dealt with the situation honourably. The hon. Member for Corby (Mr. Hope) will have to appear in front of a tribunal and the Lord Chancellor has lost before a tribunal. I am sure that both of them have a reasonable case, but they have had to go to the trouble and expense of trying to defend themselves, their honour and their political reputations.
Mr. Byers: The hon. Gentleman makes a case for the issues to be dealt with by codes rather than by detailed
regulation. Our difficulty with new clause 3 is that it would give an umbrella right to the Secretary of State to introduce codes wherever he or she felt that that was appropriate. The Government prefer a more targeted approach. We acknowledge that codes will be more appropriate in some cases, but a power already exists, under sections 199 and 203 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, that enables the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service or the Secretary of State to issue codes of practice containing practical guidance for the purpose of promoting the improvement of industrial relations, much as the hon. Member for Daventry suggested.
We also intend to draw up a code on grievance and disciplinary procedures to complement the Bill's provisions, especially in relation to the right to be accompanied at grievance and disciplinary proceedings. Some hon. Members may have thought that we would introduce a raft of regulations to do that. We feel that a code would be more appropriate.
We will also produce a code of practice on access to the work force in relation to our proposals on statutory trade union recognition. Again, we feel that that area is far better dealt with by code than detailed regulation. The important thing to remember, as with all statutory industrial relations codes, is that the new codes will make recommendations on good practice and prescribe the law to which they relate. Most importantly, they can be taken into account by tribunals and courts, particularly when they have to decide whether the behaviour of either party, the employer or the employee, is reasonable in the circumstances.
Mr. Sayeed:
The Secretary of State has said that the codes "can" be taken into account. Could he be more robust and say "should"? When a company has demonstrated that it acted reasonably, the ability to take that into account is important.
Mr. Byers:
Tribunals generally take codes into account. That is why the codes are there.
I hope that the hon. Member for Daventry will seek leave to withdraw new clause 3, but, if the measure is pushed to a Division, I ask the House to resist it because it could make all tribunal rights subject to a code of practice as it would introduce an overriding power. I have reservations about that which reflect our previous debate. The new clause could introduce a raft of quasi-regulation in the form of codes. It could be very wide-ranging. There is a strong argument for being focused about the areas that we subject to code of practice procedures.
I fear that if there are minor transgressions by either party, the code of practice under the new clause could be used against their interests. An employee or employer who failed to comply with the code's details could be in
some difficulty. The better approach is to have a focused code of good practice which will come before the House to be debated and consulted upon. We can then move forward and hon. Members will know exactly which codes we intend to introduce, rather than going down the route of prescriptive regulation.
As we look forward to creating a climate in which regulation is not automatically the first option for Ministers, I hope that they will consider codes of practice as a better avenue down which to go. We shall then be able to make progress using the powers that we already have under the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 rather than the wider-ranging powers that new clause 3 would give the Secretary of State. For those reasons, I hope that the House will accept Government amendment No. 57 and that the hon. Member for Daventry will seek leave to withdraw his new clause in the light of my comments.
Mr. Boswell:
This has been an unusually thoughtful and fruitful debate. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Sayeed), who did well to remind the House of the practical problems of employers in compiling and defending cases at employment tribunals. The considerable costs may lead them to make decisions that are not in their best interests, or that they might have chosen not to make, but found to be the least bad alternative in the circumstances. It is important to put that on record to give the lie to the assumption that things are always all right under the umbrella of reasonableness at employment tribunals. As the Secretary of State intuited, the difficulty is that once regulation is in place, it can be something of an unguided missile. It is not always possible to produce a result that is felt to be just while being legally coherent.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce) for his remarks and for reminding us of the comments of the Minister for Small Firms, Trade and Industry in Committee on what is rapidly becoming in this respect--perhaps we should pass on hastily--something of a consensus about the approach. That characterised the Secretary of State's response to my suggestions. He might even have mentioned that the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act dates from 1992 and reflects the wisdom of his Conservative predecessors and, in fairness, the considerable custom and practice that has built up around ACAS and its ability to advise on such matters.
It was refreshing to hear a widening in the Secretary of State's remarks of the concept, in clause 19, of the part-time work code to other areas, including grievance and disciplinary procedures and access to the work force. I had not wholly anticipated those points, not least because they are not set out in the Bill, whereas the code in clause 19 is explicit. Those announcements were welcome, as was his general approach. I understand what he was driving at. Targeting is interesting, and we might debate it in the context of social security legislation,but not tonight. The exact balance of rights and responsibilities that can be carried by codes or by other means is difficult to follow.
I see the hon. Member for Wentworth (Mr. Healey) across the Chamber. We are all striving to find ways, as he did with his Employment Rights (Dispute Resolution) Bill last year, of alternative dispute resolution. We do not want disputes to go to the wall
if it is possible to avoid that by good practice and common sense. I recognise the interest of all parties, including the trade unions, in that matter. Let us work on the presumption that the Secretary of State is driving in the right direction. We need to see more; we will need to see the codes. It would help him if, instead of having them thrown at us in the confrontational atmosphere of a 90-minute debate, we could have a pre-draft hearing, or a look at a draft, so that we could talk about it and see whether we could contribute ideas, as I am sure that my hon. Friends would wish. I do not ask him to respond to that now. On that note of qualified consensus, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |