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Mr. Brady: I confess that I am guilty of the age discrimination that the hon. Gentleman highlights, in that I tend to favour employing older people because I find that they have greater staying power and more commitment to their job. Surely, under the proposed new clause that practice would be illegal.
Mr. Chidgey: The hon. Gentleman usually looks through Bills with forensic skill, so I am surprised at his comment. Perhaps he was half asleep, because if he had read the new clause carefully he would know that it refers to "age", not to a particular age. The clause covers age discrimination, whether the person is young or old; it applies--although not perhaps equally--to many age groups.
Mr. Brady: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again, because I want to clear up this point. I fear that I have been the subject of an unjust calumny. I do not necessarily claim to be forensic, but I think that the hon. Gentleman is making my point. The fact that the new clause would outlaw discrimination on the ground of age, whether old or young, is precisely my point; there may be extremely good reasons for choosing to employ an older person, but that would be outlawed under the new clause.
Mr. Chidgey: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making the point a little clearer. My point is that people's employment should be based on their ability; the only discrimination that should exist in the workplace is over a person's competence to do the job. That is what the new clause is about.
I readily accept that anti-age discrimination legislation would not in itself change the underlying negative attitudes that exist, but it would be an important step towards ensuring that employers change their practices. There is strong support from industry.
Mr. Brian Cotter (Weston-super-Mare):
My hon. Friend refers to the possibility that legislation might not change attitudes. That was also true of the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Bill 1998, which was adopted by the Government on the understanding that we needed a stick, but that we also needed to change the culture.
Mr. Chidgey:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. Time and again, the Government have told us that the legislation that they wanted to have the power to enact through enabling Bills was merely a background to the problems that they hoped to solve through discussion and consultation. I accept that, but I do not see why we should not have the necessary sticks to back up the consultation that the Government hope will be successful.
There is strong support for legislation to tackle age discrimination. In a recent survey, the Institute of Management found that about 60 per cent. of managers favoured legislation to restrict the use of age limits injob advertisements and about 65 per cent. favour comprehensive employment protection legislation. Some organisations will argue that a voluntary code and the promotion of the advantages of older workers is enough and that legislation is not necessary. From its briefing notes, the Confederation of British Industry appears to be a case in point. The CBI argues that age discrimination is extremely difficult to define; so are many elements of the Bill, but that has not prevented the Government from introducing legislation. The CBI asks:
Mr. Boswell:
I hold no particular brief for the CBI, but I think that the point its members were making is that older workers might not need training because they were already fully trained. Although some of them might need training, their entitlement to training might be somewhat different from that of other workers.
Mr. Chidgey:
I should very much like to agree with the sentiments expressed by the hon. Gentleman, but the CBI briefing refers to
In 1996, the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney), spoke in a debate on the Employment (Upper Age Limits in Advertisements) Bill. Incidentally, I am sad that the right hon. Gentleman is not able to be in the Chamber today; I know that he has been unwell and I wish him a speedy recovery. I mean no disrespect to the Minister on the Treasury Bench when I say that I would have been pleased to see the Minister of State at the Dispatch Box; I know that he would have wanted to be here to defend what he said when he was in opposition. He stated:
The CBI has made a range of "what if" objections to the clause; they are not dissimilar to the probing amendments to the Bill introduced in Committee. However, in each case the Government responded to those amendments by saying--more or less--that the carrot of voluntary codes is not sufficient, and that that carrot needs to backed up by a legislative stick, as my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Cotter) pointed out. In every case, the Government made the point that the Bill provides for the Secretary of State to make regulations should he see the need to do so and only after consultation. However, the power to make such regulations will be in force in law.
With new clause 4, I am not asking for any more than that. If the Government accept the new clause, they will have grasped the opportunity to ensure that, in employment relations, discrimination in the work force on the basis of age will be prohibited, with the force of law to back up that prohibition.
New clause 5 would, in relation to employment, prohibit discrimination by an employer against another person on the ground of sexual orientation. The issue first came to my notice when I was first elected in 1994, because in my Eastleigh constituency a case involving such discrimination came to light and subsequently became internationally known. The case involved two women--Lisa Grant and her partner Jill Pearcey--who happened to live not far from my offices in Eastleigh. Lisa told me that, as an employee of South West Trains, she was entitled to privileged rail travel; and that, if she had been married, that privilege would have extended to her husband, or, in these enlightened times, to her common law spouse if she had had one. However, because her partner is the same sex as her, she has been denied those travel rights, even though the policy document issued by
the previous employer and kept in place--British Rail's employment policy document--stated that such discrimination is unacceptable.
Many hon. Members will recall the case because Lisa and Jill took their case to an industrial tribunal, which in due course referred it to the European Court of Justice. Their case was presented for them by an eminent and, I believe, very able Queen's Counsel--none other than Cherie Booth, QC. The outcome was that although the European Parliament has declared that it deplores all forms of discrimination based on an individual's sexual orientation, the European Union itself has not yet adopted rules to provide for such equality.
Mr. Wilkinson:
Although I have no truck with the European Union arrogating to itself a function that rightly appertains to member states--namely, to decide social policy within them--is it not true that, had that action been successful, it might have opened the floodgates to all sorts of spurious claims, with people purporting to be partners when they were only friends and individuals and thereby gaining rights and entitlements that were not rightfully theirs?
"What should be the comparator age?"
I dealt with that point earlier. The CBI argues that not all differential treatment on the ground of age is unreasonable, giving the example that older workers do not have comparable training needs to younger workers--what an admission. Throughout industry and commerce, firms are suffering from severe skills shortages, yet according to the CBI it is okay to discriminate against older workers in investment and training. No wonder the highest levels of unemployment are among those aged 45 or older, whose skills have not been kept up to date and who find themselves with obsolete techniques in industries that also deserve to be obsolete.
"older members nearing retirement age".
30 Mar 1999 : Column 936
The CBI completely missed the point of the clause; its briefing refers only to older workers. As I have pointed out, younger workers are often stifled and prevented from getting promotion on their ability because they happen to be too young according to the practices of the firm for which they work. I disagree with the CBI. Apparently, the Government disagree with the CBI too--or at least they did disagree.
"The Labour party's position is quite clear . . . an incoming Labour Government will introduce comprehensive legislation to make age discrimination in employment illegal. We shall consult on the legislation. We want to ensure that not only will workers have a remedy in law against discrimination, but the appropriate legal framework will be put in place to enable employers to change their workplace practices, with co-operation between management and workplace representatives.--[Official Report, 9 February 1996; Vol. 271, c. 618.]
A well-made speech. I can hear the right hon. Gentleman saying those words in ringing tones. I agree; those are my sentiments exactly.
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