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Bus Passes (Pensioners)
3. Mr. John Grogan (Selby): If he will make a statement concerning progress in implementing the policy of making available half-fare bus passes for all pensioners. [78817]
The Minister of Transport (Dr. John Reid): We intend to legislate to make half-fare bus passes available
to all pensioners as soon as parliamentary time permits. It is of course open to individual local authorities to adopt the proposed minimum standard in advance of legislation.
Mr. Grogan: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he recognise the urgency of the matter and the priority with which many in rural Britain treat this issue, especially in my constituency, where, for example, in market towns such as Tadcaster and villages such as Sherburn-in-Elmet, pensioners have to make do with only £8 a year of bus tokens--enough for three or four journeys a year--in the knowledge that their neighbours in West Yorkshire, in towns such as Weatherby, have access to concessionary travel at 20p per journey off peak? Is not that fundamentally unfair?
Dr. Reid: I agree with my hon. Friend that any Government committed, as the Government are, to a fairer, more inclusive society would want to ensure that bus travel remains within reach of those with very limited means. That is precisely why we are proposing a guaranteed half-fare scheme for pensioners in England and Wales, with a maximum £5 annual bus pass. I am sure that that, with many other measures that we are taking to increase activity and access and promote growth in the bus passenger market, will be widely welcomed by pensioners in my hon. Friend's constituency and throughout the country.
Mr. Adrian Sanders (Torbay): Will the Minister accept that half-fare bus travel is not really enough--that our pensioners should be entitled to travel at half fare by coach, bus, rail, ferry or any mode of transport, and that our pensioners deserve such a comprehensive scheme?
Dr. Reid: That is another penny on the tax, I suppose. Of course, in an ideal world, we would like to make half-fare travel even more extensive, but I think that the hon. Gentleman would be churlish if he did not at least accept that the Government's proposals to extend half-fare bus travel to all pensioners throughout England and Wales represent a major advance on anything that has gone before and will be widely welcomed by pensioners in his constituency and throughout the country.
New Forest
4. Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West): If he will make a statement about his plans to introduce new legislation affecting the status of the New forest. [78819]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Mr. Alan Meale): We are still looking very carefully at all the issues connected with a possible change in status for the New forest. We hope to announce some conclusions soon.
Mr. Swayne: Over the last 30 years, on every issue of conservation against development, one or other of the local authorities has backed the developers only to be thwarted by the verderers, exercising their existing powers under the New Forest Acts. Can the Minister assure me, therefore, that he will not produce proposals setting up a new park authority with statutory powers that could restrain in any way the freedom of action of the verderers court?
Mr. Meale: I assure the hon. Gentleman--as I did in the recent debate in the House, which he initiated--that
full consideration will be given to the verderers' views and that we envisage no likely change in the role that they undertake at present.
Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test): Does the Minister accept that it is quite possible to establish national park status for the New forest, which would be very much welcomed by many people living in the area, without necessarily removing the powers of the verderers under certain circumstances or many of the planning powers of the local authority, and that many people would welcome that way forward for the New forest?
Mr. Meale: I am aware that there is a wide variety of views. Indeed, we have received many hundreds of letters on this subject. There are those who are strongly in favour of national park status and those who are against it in the area concerned.
Mr. Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne): Does the Minister agree that in areas such as the New forest and the south downs, it is far better to build on existing structures that have been proved successful rather than listen to noisy minorities that want national park status? When will the hon. Gentleman announce his final decision on these issues?
Mr. Meale: I repeat that that will be soon. We are determined to get the decision-making process right rather than to accommodate one side or the other. The hon. Gentleman might consider the views of the Leader of the Opposition who, when recently interviewed by the Southampton Daily Echo, expressed the view that he had no difficulties with national park status in the two relevant areas which adjoin his constituency.
Freight Costs
5. Mr. Alan W. Williams (East Carmarthen and Dinefwr): If he will make a statement on the level of freight costs in (a) the UK and (b) other EU member states. [78820]
13. Mr. Mark Todd (South Derbyshire):
If he will make a statement on road freight costs in (a) the United Kingdom and (b) other EU member states. [78828]
The Minister of Transport (Dr. John Reid):
For a typical haulage operator with 50 articulated trucks, if we include social costs, national insurance, corporation tax, labour costs, fuel and excise duty, the additional cost in France, as compared with the UK, is about £425,000 a year; in the Netherlands about £600,000; and in Belgium about £800,000. These issues will be discussed in more detail by the road haulage forum.
Mr. Williams:
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that comprehensive reply. Does he agree, bearing in mind yesterday's truckers' protest, that the general public are presented with only one part of the picture? Will he go in considerable detail through the various factors with the road haulage forum and perhaps prepare and present an agreed report eventually so that there is transparency and so that the general public can understand that road haulage costs in Britain are about a third less than those in France, Germany and Italy?
Dr. Reid:
Yes, I certainly will. The general public are coming to recognise that when all costs are considered,
It is a matter of deep regret that a militant section of the hauliers have rejected the path of dialogue and have opted instead to disrupt, inconvenience and punish millions of ordinary members of the public while discussions are taking place. I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House would wish to condemn such destructive action.
Mr. Todd:
I certainly thank the Minister for the last part of his reply. I share his view entirely, as I think would my constituents. However, may I ask him three questions on this issue--[Hon. Members: "No."] I shall do so very quickly. First, my right hon. Friend referred to a 50-truck company. I would be interested--I am sure that the road haulage forum would find it helpful--to explore the position of a smaller company, including its cash flow, as a result of the change in tax status. Secondly, what is the impact on market share over the period in which the increased taxes will be introduced? Thirdly, are there means of measuring the impact on the environment of these taxes so that we can ensure that the outcomes are those that we are seeking?
Dr. Reid:
Yes. At great risk of going on at tremendous length, I think that it would be helpful if we considered some of these issues. I can tell my hon. Friend, for instance, that labour costs are higher for our continental neighbours by more than 55 per cent. in France, 95 per cent. in Belgium and 75 per cent. in the Netherlands. Corporation tax for individual firms--my hon. Friend asked specifically about smaller firms--is higher for our continental neighbours. It is 50.65 per cent. higher in France, 40.17 per cent. higher in Belgium and 35 per cent. higher in the Netherlands. I could go on indefinitely, but I undertake to write to my hon. Friend in answer to those three questions as well as any others he wishes to ask.
Mr. Tony Baldry (Banbury):
If what the Minister says is correct, hauliers would be flagging out from France, Germany and the Netherlands and joining the United Kingdom truck industry, but quite the opposite is happening. UK hauliers are flagging out and registering elsewhere because, in the marketplace, the costs are cheaper. He cannot be unaware that independent research, supported by organisations such as the Confederation of British Industry, has shown that about 50,000 jobs will be at risk if the Government maintain these policies. The extra costs will be felt not only in the haulage industry, but throughout the whole of UK plc. Will he work out why UK hauliers are moving away rather than companies from elsewhere in Europe coming to this country?
Dr. Reid:
May I correct the hon. Gentleman? The independent research to which he refers was commissioned by the Road Haulage Association; although it may be an honourable organisation, it is hardly independent in the present context. He and his party must be experts on flagging out--they cut their eye teeth on flagging out almost the whole of the British merchant shipping industry. He will be aware, as I am, that the leading exponent of flagging out--to Belize, I think--is the current treasurer of the Tory party.
On interchange of registration, in an increasingly integrated Europe, some British companies will flag out abroad as some companies from abroad will flag out in Britain. The fact is that all the independent assessments, including the most recent one by KPMG, show that, next to Austria, our road haulage industry is the most competitive in Europe.
Finally, as millions of people have again been condemned, punished, inconvenienced and disrupted by the militant action this week, it would be useful if, just for once, a Tory spokesman stood up to back the public and said how much the Tories condemn and regret the action.
Mr. William Ross (East Londonderry):
The House and the country will no doubt be very interested in the figures given by the Minister, but will he go further and publish in the Official Report all the figures for all the European states, so that we can see what the facts are? Will he understand that those of us from Northern Ireland are particularly interested in the costs vis-a-vis Northern Ireland and the Republic, not least the cost of fuel?
Dr. Reid:
I shall continue to publish as many facts as I can on this matter, because the one way to put the case in perspective is to put as many facts as possible before the public. I have to say that the way to solve problems such as this is through dialogue--not through disruption. We are concerned about the overcapacity in the industry and we want to help the hauliers, which is why I am having discussions with the Road Haulage Association and the Freight Transport Association, but we will not be held to ransom. I only wish that we had some of the courage shown by Conservative Members in standing up for the general public.
Mr. Dale Campbell-Savours (Workington):
Will my right hon. Friend ask his officials, or Treasury officials, to dig out the figures that really matter in this whole argument--the transport cost per tonne per kilometre, by road and by rail, in each European country, including the United Kingdom? I believe that those statistics will reveal the truth. Can we have those statistics published? If we cannot, can we have published some indicators that we all understand and which we can use in explanations to the road haulage industry?
Dr. Reid:
My hon. Friend makes a good point. As he knows, there are any number of potential indicators and statistics can be used, on either side of an argument, to illustrate the case. I will certainly look at that particular method or at any other simplified way of putting the truth of this matter across to the public.
Mrs. Gillian Shephard (South-West Norfolk):
If the right hon. Gentleman would agree this afternoon to commission a new report on the facts and figures surrounding the haulage industry, the Opposition would welcome that. But what the right hon. Gentleman said this afternoon will have been listened to with incredulity by the industry. If the British road haulage industry is in such a favourable and competitive position, why are his policies driving large British haulage companies out of the country and small British haulage companies out of business?
Dr. Reid:
I take it that one of the companies to which the right hon. Lady refers is Eddie Stobart, a great British
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