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Mr. Keith Darvill (Upminster): I declare an interest. I am a solicitor and a partner in a firm of solicitors. I was admitted to the roll of solicitors in January 1982 and I am
a member of the Law Society. I note the figures that my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney) quoted about the number of solicitors in the House. In many ways, it is a pity that not more non-solicitors and lawyers are here to take part in the debate.
I have practised in a medium in-house legal department, in a medium private general practice and, for a short time, as a self-practitioner, so I have a spread of experience in the sector. Some of the provisions of the Bill are, as the White Paper, "Modernising Justice" says, challenging to the legal profession. The profession must adapt to a modern and rapidly changing society to provide a better service and better justice for the public.
In many ways, the profession is already doing that. The question is: has it done enough and can it do more without prejudicing the fundamental right of access to justice? It can do more without prejudicing individual rights, provided that the Bill is implemented sensitively and sensibly.
I make the broad general point that access to justice needs reform. The need for change is undeniable. The legal aid system is more than 50 years old. During those 50 years, society has changed. Requirements for legal services have changed and, most relevant to the Bill, changes have been made to legal aid eligibility.
As the ever useful House of Commons Library research paper shows, spending on civil legal aid increased over the years. By 1997-98, 54 per cent. of net legal aid spending--£634 million out of £1,177 million--was on civil, certificated legal aid. However, today, such legal aid accounts for less than 10 per cent. of the number of acts of assistance that are paid for. The reduction of certificated legal aid litigants is due mainly to the previous Government's policy of reducing eligibility.
I broadly welcome the Bill. I have my reservations about some aspects of it, yet a good framework is proposed, which can be built on to establish more comprehensive provision of legal services to enhance and to expand access to justice.
To a certain extent, the provision of public legal services is like that of health services: it will never be possible to provide for all the population's needs; in fact, it has never has been possible. In terms of short, medium and long-term planning, we should all come to terms with that fact. The services are, to a large extent, provided for defence in criminal prosecutions because of the threat to the individual's freedom following conviction, but they are also desirable in social areas, which the Minister and other hon. Members have outlined. Coming to terms with that state of affairs is part of the reason for the Bill.
The hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) touched on the matter and I agree with him. When I started to practise 20 years ago, private practice in local areas cross-subsidised legal services. For many reasons, that cross-subsidisation has changed. In the early days when I practised, non-contentious work was still based on scale fees. Those fees have been abolished. The economic realities of practice are that conveyancing work, for example, which in certain practices subsidised other civil litigation work, has reduced.
Consumers benefited in that conveyancing fees were reduced, but the number of solicitors practising, and covering litigation in particular, decreased as a result. Indeed, in other areas, the market price for such services has driven down that potential. In some ways, that is sad, but that is unlikely ever to come back.
At the same time, there has been a massive expansion in civil legal aid, particularly in the divorce and matrimonial breakdown sector.
I turn to the detailed provisions of the Bill. I shall begin with some comments about the community legal service, which in my view is the jewel in the crown. I warmly welcome the establishment of a community legal service, which will be the best feature of the Bill provided that funding is ensured, particularly early on. It will enable an expansion in the provision of advice and assistance to those in need of legal services for social welfare-related problems.
I have worked with my local citizens advice bureau, which warmly welcomes the general concept. Voluntary services in law centres and elsewhere do an excellent job and the Bill will enhance their role as a result of the community legal service, regional planning and the block contract. It will make a real difference.
The White Paper contains some interesting statistics about citizens advice bureaux around the country. There are 700 main CABs, 1,759 outlets, 800 independent centres and 53 law centres costing a total of £150 million. They represent excellent value for money.
The Bill will also provide the opportunity to refocus legal aid spending, particularly in respect of welfare law, housing benefit and tribunals and enable more money to be targeted on the non-profit sector. In my view, the community legal service should be set up in tandem with the other reforms. The reforms are so fundamental that, as a quid pro quo as it were, the community legal service should be implemented at the same time. There may be winners and losers, but the winners will be the less well-off and those who are unable to make other provision for legal expenses.
There is also another positive angle. The community legal service could develop a legal health check. Health insurance, car insurance and holiday insurance often include legal cover. Many households do not realise that they have cover for legal expenses. It would be useful for everyone to be able to have a legal health check. Such a scheme could be developed with the profession and with the insurance industry. It would plug many of the holes in provision that hon. Members have mentioned.
I am concerned about the possible effects of the proposal on the civil budget in the absence of the CLS, particularly if the block contracting that is envisaged does not cover the whole country. We need to ensure that the Bill provides adequate cover. In some areas, there may not be many practices or sufficient cover in the voluntary sector. If there is patchy cover, some citizens may suffer as a result.
I should like to make two more points before concluding my speech. The first relates to contracting. I can see the benefits of that in ensuring best value for the taxpayer. Although I am not arguing for the profession, if there is insufficient cover there will be difficulties. Solicitors' practices will need to invest in the provision of services and if there are limited contracts they may be unable to finance the necessary investment in premises, staff and so on. Some attempt must be made in the implementation of contracts to ensure smooth delivery of services.
I should say that I am no great supporter of conditional fees. In many ways, I have been a purist on the subject. However, I have come to accept them, although I do so
with reservations. My reservations do not stem from the Bill, but from my experience in advice surgeries. Essentially because of lower eligibility levels, my constituents who come to see me in my advice surgeries support the idea of being able to use no win, no fee arrangements in pursuing their cases. There is popular demand for such arrangements. The House should therefore ensure that the Bill deals with the reservations about the arrangements that have been expressed in this debate.
I agree with the Law Society that, for conditional fee arrangements to succeed, the insurance industry will have to play its role in providing products that complement the concept. There is evidence, which I welcome, that that is starting to happen. However, the market will have to develop further in the light of experience.
I believe that the Government's proposals in the Bill will increase access to justice by making it easier for people to afford legal services, particularly with conditional fee agreements, and by providing funding for people who cannot afford to pay privately, thereby securing value for taxpayers' money and targeting available resources on the areas of greatest need and highest priority.
I therefore support the Bill and oppose the Opposition's amendment.
Mr. Gareth Thomas (Clwyd, West):
At least two other Labour Members are anxious to speak in the debate, so I shall simply make some very brief comments.
I declare an interest as a member of the Bar, and welcome the Bill. It is not a cost-cutting Bill, but a Bill which will control the spending of public money. The Government should not have to apologise for the need to refocus public money, to ensure that it is properly spent and put to good use where it is sorely needed. I welcome the fact that the Government have embarked on a programme of re-orienting the legal aid system, so that public money goes where it is needed--on matters such as welfare rights, housing rights and other vital community-based rights.
Various speakers in the debate have made much of the fact that the Bill will remove legal aid for personal injury cases. I do not accept that that is a fatal flaw in the Bill. I believe that it is entirely realistic to expect conditional fee agreements to take over the role now played by legal aid. Although there is concern about that aspect of the Bill, equally, there has been concern about abuse of legal aid certificates. The sometimes very large contribution that litigants find attached to their legal aid certificates, and the issue of eligibility, are problems. There is also a problem with how to manage the legal aid system. The only solution offered by Conservative Members is further cuts in eligibility, which surely is not in the public interest.
I was impressed by the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies). I, too, am uneasy about some aspects of the criminal defence service. I note that, in the other place, the Lord Chancellor attempted to allay such concerns by stating that the Government's intention was simply to use that service to fill in the gaps and to introduce some flexibility, and that
the Government's intention was to use independent private practitioners to do the bulk of criminal defence work. I should like the Government to give further assurances on that matter, as important constitutional principles are at stake.
It is right that the profession should shoulder more of the burdens and risks of litigation. Money should be properly redirected and focused.
9.11 pm
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