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Mr. Maclean: The hon. Gentleman has infinitely more experience of football and the history of ticket touting than me, even though I had the ministerial brief on it; I was grateful for his advice at the time. Can he confirm that a large part of the problem at the world cup in France was the explosion of ticket touting on the internet? I doubt whether any Bill could deal with that. What can be done about it?
Mr. Pendry: The right hon. Gentleman is correct. I do not know what can be done. The House should share his concern. I hope that the Minister will seek advice on how to tackle the problem.
Mr. Fabricant: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Pendry: I wish to proceed. I have given way to the hon. Gentleman before. I love him dearly. On second thoughts, I should like that remark to be struck from the record.
Touts conduct shady activity outside grounds and deny ordinary fans access to tickets at prices that they can afford, and, most importantly, their activities can lead to a breakdown of segregation in grounds, with serious implications for crowd control. Can the Minister confirm that her Department's guidance to police reinforces the need for them to use the powers already at their disposal to arrest those who tout outside grounds? Can she confirm, not necessarily today, the number of arrests and prosecutions in the five years since the provision was enacted?
Another issue on which the hon. Member for West Chelmsford might comment has come to my attention. His press release mentioned extending banning orders during the Committee stage to what he describes as unconvicted hooligans. I have discussed that with some of the Bill's sponsors who did not know that that was his intention. I understand that he has not discussed the Bill with some of them. I think that that was a mistake and I hope that he will do so before the Committee stage because I know that they would like to discuss that aspect. Many hon. Members think that some of the people covered would be considered innocent. Those of us who witnessed at first hand the scenes at Marseilles saw how
fans trying to steer clear of crowd trouble could easily have been interpreted by police as participants in a running battle. What are the Minister's intentions? Was she consulted by the hon. Gentleman?
Mr. Nigel Jones (Cheltenham):
I congratulate the hon. Member for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) on his good fortune in introducing the Bill and on the articulate and courteous way in which he explained it. Like him and the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry), I remember with sadness what happened at Hillsborough 10 years ago and send my condolences to those still suffering from those terrible events. Football hooliganism is still with us, as we saw at Villa Park on Wednesday after the thrilling match between Arsenal and Manchester United when 700 fans invaded the pitch. The Bill is timely because we can start to tighten and strengthen the law on football offences.
I should perhaps declare my footballing interests. I have a league team, Swindon Town, and a non-league team, Cheltenham Town. They are both known as "The Robins" and, touch wood, the way things are going, I may soon have two league teams. Cheltenham Town are top of the Conference; they will no doubt now lose their last five games. I have seen both at Wembley. I am sorry that the Secretary of State is not here, but I saw Swindon Town in the 1969 league cup final against Arsenal. The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) will no doubt remember that as well. The score was 3:1 after extra time, and two Don Rogers goals saw the third division go home with the cup. I also saw Swindon at the 1993 play-offs, when they got into the Premiership for one glorious season. Most famously, last year, Cheltenham Town visited Wembley to win the FA trophy against Southport.
Mr. Caplin:
The hon. Gentleman said that the Bill would help tackle what happened at Villa Park on Wednesday night. I am a neutral, but I saw not a pitch invasion--I will discuss those if I get the chance to speak--but a celebration by Manchester United fans.
Mr. Jones:
I accept the hon. Gentleman's perception of what happened, but I know that the police felt that their job was made more difficult by 700 fans coming on to
Mr. Fabricant:
The hon. Gentleman might like to know that in Australia recent cases involving streakers have not been prosecuted. I am not sure what lesson the Australian courts have for us there.
Mr. Jones:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that detail. I am not sure whether it is in order to discuss streakers at cricket matches in a debate on football legislation; in any event, I doubt whether there will be much streaking in this weather.
Returning to the glories of Cheltenham Town, I wish that the debate was taking place next week. The Town need six points to secure promotion to the Football League for the first time. They have two league games before then, as well as tomorrow's FA trophy semi-final, after which they hope to go to Wembley to defend the trophy in May.
I support the main thrust of this good Bill. I want to consider clauses 9 and 10. The hon. Member for West Chelmsford showed his normal courtesy in explaining his desire to amend the Bill to provide for international football banning orders for people without convictions. I have concerns about that idea, but I am content for him to table the amendment so that it can be debated fully in Committee.
Clause 9 deals with indecent or racist chanting. I abhor racism, with good reason. In 1992, when I was first elected to the House, my Conservative opponent was Lord Taylor of Warwick. That attracted considerable media attention and put Cheltenham in the spotlight. Some disgraceful comments by certain individuals were found through deep media interest and gave the town a bad name. I tried to fend off that sort of nonsense. I remember an interview with the Daily Mail during which I was asked, "Aren't you going to win this election because of racism?" I replied with one sentence: "Racists are bigots who should not share our planet." They should not share our football terraces either.
I was grateful to Professor David Butler of Nuffield college, the well-known psephologist, who after the 1997 election wrote as follows:
Obscene chanting does lessen the attraction of football to many, particularly women and children. I shall give an example. As I mentioned, Cheltenham Town was last year's FA trophy winner. The fans have a song congratulating the manager, Stevie Cotterill, who used to play for Wimbledon but was born in Cheltenham. It goes like this:
In proceeding with the Bill and in tightening legislation we must be careful not to outlaw the wit of some football fans. There are some very funny observations that turn into chants. A few weeks ago Cheltenham Town was playing Kettering Town, which was then at the top of the Conference league. It was a top-of-the-table battle. With a few minutes to go, Cheltenham was leading 3:0. A chant started:
The talented and high-scoring Stevenage Borough striker Carl Alford was called Bouncy Castle when he came to Cheltenham because he was a big and well-covered individual. We should not do anything to outlaw that sort of thing. However, when Dover Athletic visited Cheltenham the chant went up:
We need the restraint of players when it comes to swearing on the pitch. A spectator who is quite close to the pitch can hear players swearing not only at themselves for missing a pass or a goal, but at officials. We need to try to stamp out abuse of officials. By all means point out that referees need glasses, and I think that more training for referees would be a good idea. However, the obscenities that are hurled at referees sometimes have the result that if there is 50:50 decision to be made, the outcome will be less likely to be in favour of the side that has been responsible for abuse.
I move on to recommendation 22 on page 19 of the "Review of Football-Related Legislation" that relates to alcohol. I note that the Bill does not include a related provision, and I hope that such a provision will not be inserted in Committee. I should declare an interest as the chairman of the all-party parliamentary beer group, or club, as it is described on headed paper. The recommendation reads:
"Thank you for proving that the 1992 result in Cheltenham was not a racialist freak."
I can confirm to the House that people in Cheltenham are not racists. The chanting that we get at Whaddon Road when Cheltenham Town is playing is sometimes slightly obscene, and we need to do something about that. I have never heard any racist chants.
"Stevie Cotterill's magic,
16 Apr 1999 : Column 486
He wears a magic hat.
When he saw the trophy, he said 'I'm having that.'
We score goals with our left foot and we score them with our right, and when we score at Wembley we're . . . "
The words should, of course, be "Cheltenham dynamite". Sadly, the fans put an obscenity into the last line. I wish that they would not do that. I hope that if the team gets to Wembley again we shall hear the proper version of the song without obscenities.
It takes only one person to start trouble or to shout an offensive or racist chant. I have been observing fans at Cheltenham Town and at other grounds recently because I was aware that the Bill was to be introduced to the House. I was at the Kingstonian ground last Saturday for the FA trophy semi-final first leg. It was interesting to note that individuals in the stand started a chant. They were shouting something. Occasionally it was picked up by others. It was almost as if they were cheerleaders. More often than not there was a swear word or an obscenity included.
"You've got three minutes left at the top."
There was then a countdown, with the chant:
"You've got two minutes left at the top."
That was followed by:
"You've got injury time left at the top."
That was witty.
"You're French and you know you are."
Technically, that is racist. We should try to clamp down on that sort of chant.
"That legislative provision be introduced enabling chief officers of police to make application to the local licensing authority for the issue of an order with the consent of the Secretary of State to restrict the sale of alcohol in specified areas or the whole area within their licensing area for a specified period of time; and prevent the public consumption and carrying of alcohol in those areas during that time."
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If we were to introduce such a provision, it would have a devastating effect on the livelihood of those who sell alcohol in the areas concerned. It would also infringe the ability of those who have no intention of going to a football match or involving themselves in any illegal activity to buy a bottle of wine or a six-pack of beer to consume, for example, while watching "Grandstand" or enjoying a barbecue in the garden. We must ensure that we do not infringe the liberties of those who are not football fans or football match attenders.
The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean), who intervened on the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry), the former Labour spokesman on sport, was absolutely right to say that there has been a huge increase in internet traffic for ticket touting and for everything else as well. Internet use is to be encouraged but ticket touting is to be discouraged.
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