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The Minister for Sport (Mr. Tony Banks): That is a different life.
Mr. Gale: It is no good the Minister for Sport muttering that that is a different life. It should not be different and it does not need to be different. I, for one, will not accept the perpetuation of that different life. One of the ways of getting to grips with that problem and achieving integration and better behaviour inside the grounds--I accept that not all problems occur inside the grounds--is to have better ticketing arrangements.
Mr. Peter L. Pike (Burnley): I am glad to have the opportunity to say a few words on this Bill. I congratulate the hon. Member for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) on introducing it. I am one of its sponsors on the Government Benches, but I should make it clear from the outset that I will not be able to serve on the Committee that will consider it because I already serve on the Modernisation Committee, which sits on Wednesday mornings.
It is important that we consider these issues, so as to ensure that we eliminate the harm and tremendous damage that is done at games by a minority of people who call themselves football supporters. It is right to say that most of the problems no longer occur at games. Indeed, one can always tell who is going to cause trouble at a game, because they are the ones who pay very little attention to what is going on on the pitch. They are looking at other things, so one can nearly always identify them when sitting in the stands.
I associate myself with all the comments in this debate on the Hillsborough tragedy and the tributes paid yesterday on the 10th anniversary of it. We shall never forget the grave tragedy at that FA cup semi-final.
I also want to make it clear that I am the secretary of the all-party football group but I am certainly not speaking in that capacity, as that group has not taken a particular view of the Bill. I have been a Burnley supporter for more than 50 years, and recently acquired five shares in the football club. In a true sense, I am now one of Labour's stakeholders. For a number of years, I have also been president of the Burnley Football Club London Supporters Association.
The hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale) referred to Margate and dreams. Football is in many ways a game of dreams. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley), who should be the hon. Member for Port Vale because she is such a fanatical supporter of the club, as am I of Burnley, referred to the Premier and Nationwide leagues and the spread of clubs. Dreams make football a major participation sport and, of course, the No. 1 spectator sport in this country. We must recognise the tremendous increase over recent years in the number of spectators who go through the gates for Nationwide and Premier games.
I remember Wimbledon playing at Turf Moor in the FA cup 26 years ago. Indeed, when I was at school, I remember seeing the team play Kingstonian in the Athenian league. It came to Burnley as a southern non-league club. Twenty six years later, the once mighty Burnley is in one of the lower divisions, and has been for most of those 26 years, whereas Wimbledon has of course a much better record in the FA cup and the league over that period.
Mr. Huw Edwards (Monmouth):
May I correct my hon. Friend? When Wimbledon played Kingstonian, it was in the Isthmian league.
Mr. Pike:
I accept that. I am one of those who never knew which was the Isthmian league and which was the
When the Government consulted on the review of football-related legislation earlier this year, Burnley football club published my full-page summary of it in the club programme. As most football fans will know, the average football fan who buys a programme reads it from cover to cover, recognising every deliberate mistake and every unintentional one that slips through. People who commented to me following that article--I did not receive many letters on it--said that they strongly supported the measures that the Government were proposing, which were very much along the lines of the Bill.
I received a letter from a constituent, Mr. Leedam, who has written to me on a number of issues. He used to be a very keen football fan but was put off by hooliganism. He used to support Burnley both at home and away. He pointed out--the hon. Member for West Chelmsford made the point that this Bill is particularly trying to address the matter--that problems occur more often away from, rather than inside, grounds. Discussions between Burnley football club and Lancashire police this year revealed that an increased number of games have been designated police-free. In other words, the police take the view that club stewards are fully able to deal with any problems inside the ground and that the police should be present only outside it. It is therefore right that the Bill attempts to address the present problems.
We must ensure that a minority of people do not spoil the name of football and do not create trouble in town centres and elsewhere, so that others are afraid of walking around, doing their Saturday shopping and other things. I stress that problems are caused by the minority, although, unfortunately, we must so often take action to deal with such minorities.
The hon. Member for West Chelmsford described additional measures that he might want to introduce. I warn him to be extremely wary in doing so. I have always been quite strong on civil liberty and human rights issues. I have been surprised by some interventions by Opposition Members, whom I would not always regard as the greatest champions of such issues. That shows that we must be very careful. I have looked carefully at the matter and think that, on balance, the Bill goes just about far enough. It strikes a fair balance. In a civilised society, a balance must always be struck between protecting the lives of the many and dealing with the minority in drawing a line on civil liberties. It would be a little dangerous to embark upon some of things that the hon. Gentleman said that he might like to consider in Committee. I say that genuinely; we must be very careful.
Mr. Maclean:
I have been looking at the proportionality of the Bill. Last year's National Criminal Intelligence Service figures show that there were 258 criminal offences involving some measure of violence at football matches. The latest Home Office statistics show that crimes of violence against the person totalled 256,000. Does the hon. Gentleman therefore agree that the Bill goes slightly too far?
Mr. Pike:
I have great respect for the right hon. Gentleman, who is a former Home Office Minister. I am
This year, I went to one away match at Maine Road--I have attended more than one, but I am talking of one that attracted a crowd of more than 30,000. When the match ended, Burnley fans were asked to stay in the ground to allow Manchester City fans to move away, but even when we were told that it was safe to leave, a minority of fans of both sides--not just City fans--were causing major problems. For a short time, I felt extremely worried about whether I could safely reach the place to catch a bus into the centre of Manchester for my return to Burnley. Such problems should not occur.
If, when I am watching Burnley play Bournemouth tomorrow afternoon, we hear that Blackburn are losing their game to Southampton, the news may get the biggest cheer of the afternoon, because nothing will delight us more. I share the typical Burnley supporter's view that Blackburn's relegation would be great news for Burnley, and would deserve a cheer. However, I would not support the idea of throwing missiles and so on. Some years ago, when I sponsored a ball for a friendly game between Burnley and Blackburn Rovers, I went down the road and saw some of the extreme minority throwing bricks from one side to another. That cannot be condoned.
Some of the behaviour of fans travelling abroad does tremendous harm to the country's image abroad. I accept that there are problems in other European countries. I have been in Auxerre in France when a football match has been on and seen problems in that town, so I am under no illusions; I do not believe that such behaviour is solely a British problem. Nevertheless, we must deal with our people. We do not want English fans to give this country a bad name.
Clause 9 deals with indecent and racialist chanting. The other week, I received a letter from a rector of a church who is now not in Burnley but who was a curate at a local church several years ago. In that letter, he complained about the chanting in the family stand. He has been very encouraged by the response that he has had from the club, and the increased stewarding and the action by stewards at following matches. Football at Burnley has always attracted many women supporters, and we must accept that it is much more of a family sport than it used to be. People take their families to matches probably more than at any time in the history of the game. Indecent or racist chants are unacceptable, and I fully support what the police are seeking to do about them.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry) that further action must be taken, in this country as well as in relation to international matches, to clamp down on ticket touting. I welcome the Bill's provisions on touting. Tickets for some matches are snapped up, but, as one approaches Wembley for a match, one still sees people selling tickets. The genuine football supporter--the one who bought the season ticket, the one who attends every week--is unable to get a ticket for a semi-final or other important match without paying over the odds.
The hon. Member for North Thanet said that the way in which touting was tackled in France and outside France recently was a fiasco. There is no better way to describe the way in which those tickets were distributed, and we must ensure that that does not happen again.
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