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Mr. Huw Edwards (Monmouth): I regret some of the comments by the hon. Member for Lichfield(Mr. Fabricant), especially on ticket touting. Does he feel no sympathy for those supporters who support a team all year, but find--when their team gains some measure of success--that their access to tickets is completely denied because of poor ticket distribution and corporate entertainment? I have seen that happen at football matches and--increasingly, recently--at rugby internationals.
Mr. Fabricant: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. However, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) pointed out, we should not be controlling the touts, but those who sell the tickets in the first place.
Mr. Edwards: The hon. Gentleman did refer to ticket touting as "free enterprise"--as if it were fair trade.
I congratulate the hon. Member for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) on proposing the Bill. I listened carefully to my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry), and I acknowledge the great deal of work that he has done in the past to support football. However, I did not agree with his criticism of the way in which the Bill has been produced. If it is a good Bill, it can be introduced by anyone in this House. If it is worthy of cross-party support, we should try to get it through this place as soon as possible.
Clearly, there are reservations among Opposition Members about a proposed clause that is not yet in the Bill. In addition, if bans are to be imposed or passports are to be withdrawn from people on suspicion, the human rights implications of that must be considered. My hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde suggested that if such a ban were imposed, some innocent people might be disadvantaged. Of course, everyone is innocent until convicted, and a serious precedent could be established if that proposal is not looked at carefully.
I have followed football a great deal, although I do not get the opportunity at the moment to go to matches as much as some of my colleagues. In my constituency, there is not a club that anyone could think of which I could go to regularly, where people pay to attend. In my constituency, there is the Abergavenny Thursdays club, which charges admission at the gate. It plays in the Gwent league, having been in the Konica Welsh league--or the comical league of Wales, as some call it--a couple of years ago. The team gets more publicity in the local papers than I do, but I do not see it play as much as I should.
I have been a football supporter at various levels. As a young boy, I supported my local amateur side, Tooting and Mitcham. That is why I was able to intervene on my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike) on the subject of the Isthmian league. I could spend time talking about some giant-killing matches; most notably against Nottingham Forest in 1958, when I was a young boy. Throughout all levels of football, there is a tremendous latent support. At every level, people are embarrassed by the violence and aggression associated with a small number of people.
I have also followed Manchester United. When I lived in Manchester for six years, I went to home matches. Like many other Manchester United supporters, I see the
occasional game; I go to maybe one or two a year now, at home and away. I have stood on the terraces and felt intimidated, if not particularly frightened, during certain games. I have seen violence at matches and found it distasteful. I would add that the great majority of supporters do not wish to be tarnished with the reputation of being hooligans.
Reference has been made today to the Hillsborough disaster. What a terrible disaster that was; but how awful it was that some newspapers afterwards--I can think of one in particular--castigated some of the victims as if they were thugs, yobs and hooligans. They were totally innocent citizens caught up in a major diaster.
I remember going on a football special train about 10 years ago from Manchester to Liverpool. I had no car at the time, and that was the easiest way to get there. I went after work, wearing a suit, and I recall being abused by police officers on the train when not one person on it had done anything wrong. Those people were castigated as hooligans simply for being associated with Manchester.
At times I have been concerned for police officers who have had to be in the middle of violence at football matches. I have felt great sympathy for them. I have seen violence at matches in the lower levels of the league. On Sunday there will be a local derby between Swansea and Cardiff. Unfortunately, that game has in the past been associated with violence. I sincerely hope that there will not be violence on Sunday and that both clubs will be promoted from the third division by the end of the season.
There has been a rebuilding of football in recent years. Much of the violence associated with football has been greatly diminished. The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) gave statistics on the decline in the number of offences committed at football matches and we all welcome that. We seem to love to believe that violence is perpetually getting worse, but there are certain areas in which that is not the case, and this is clearly one of them.
I want to speak on behalf of the genuine football supporters who have been castigated in various ways. I was at the rugby international at Wembley on Sunday, and I felt that fans were being totally ripped off. A small bottle of beer cost £2.30--more than £5 a pint--which is ridiculous. We need to consider how to improve matters.
The rebuilding of football grounds, the requirement to have all-seater stadiums in the higher divisions, the improved marketing of football and the introduction of closed circuit television have led to increasing attendances, with more women and children at matches. That is very welcome. The reduction in violence will have attracted people and we want them to keep coming to football, so that ordinary people will not find the atmosphere intimidating.
The hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale) made an interesting point when he spoke honestly about the prejudice that he had towards football, as a supporter of rugby and cricket. To his credit, he described how his son's enthusiasm for football changed the way in which he thought about it.
Football has reflected many of the social divisions in our society. I went to a school where we played only football. I would have loved to have played rugby. Why could not I have gone to a school where both football and rugby were played? I did not take up rugby until about two years ago--I may be the oldest person to have taken it up--and I still enjoy playing football.
There have been social divisions and snobbery about sport in this country, and that must be part of the context in which we consider the Bill. Wembley stadium is about to be rebuilt. Twickenham is a wonderful stadium and I would love soccer matches to be played there, as they are at Cardiff Arms Park. We heard a lot of nonsense in Wales about how it would be sacrilegious to play soccer at Cardiff Arms Park, but some of the Welsh soccer team's recent successes have been there, and I hope that the team will continue to do well and qualify for the next European tournament. We need to get away from the snobbery that forms some of the social context of football.
Football supporters are not violent, although violent people are attracted to and associate themselves with football. They use the loyalties and rivalries traditionally associated with football at the local, regional and international level as a justification for violence and aggression. Football supporters do not deserve to have their reputation tarnished by the activities of a small minority, and no one should be deterred by violent people from attending football matches.
Those who support our national teams--our whole nation--do not deserve to be embarrassed by the activities of violent supporters overseas. The wealth of resources at the highest level of the game has brought many overseas players into British football. The football-playing community in the Premiership has become truly multicultural but, unfortunately, those who attend football matches do not seem to reflect our multicultural society. If that is the result of offensive racism that is still apparent, it is to be deplored, and I therefore welcome clause 9, which would make racist or indecent chanting by an individual an offence. Racism must be outlawed in all areas of our society, so we should all welcome that clause.
There can be little doubt that the events involving a small minority of supporters in France damaged our national reputation. Those who commit acts of violence associated with football both at home and abroad must be made aware that such behaviour will not be tolerated, and they should not be allowed to attend matches. I therefore welcome the provisions in the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 concerning international banning orders, and the provision for six months' imprisonment for breaches of those orders.
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