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Mr. Leigh: While the Crime and Disorder Bill was in Committee, Conservative Members proposed a football banning order, but the proposal was resisted by the Government.
Mr. Maclean: My hon. Friend may be correct. In the past, many proposals and pieces of legislation were resisted by the Labour Opposition that have now been slightly more enthusiastically embraced.
Mr. Forth: Will my right hon. Friend be dealing with the issue of maximums and minimums in legislation? I should understand why, if he does not, but I ask the question because I should prefer the courts to use discretion on those matters. The Bill seems to take us further away from that approach towards the introduction of statutory minimums. Does my right hon. Friend have a view on that matter?
Mr. Maclean: My right hon. Friend is right--I do have a view and, if I have time later, I shall deal with that point.
I have given the House a brief overview of the large amount of legislation relating to football hooliganism that has been introduced in an attempt to make an impact on the problem. The questions to be asked are, has it worked and do we need this new Bill? To answer the question of whether it has worked, one need only look at the statistics produced by the NCIS itself, which show that the number of arrests in football grounds has fallen 37 per cent. between 1992-93 and 1997-98--in other words, during five years in which the existing legislation has been biting. The number of arrests outside grounds has fallen by 17 per cent.; the total fall in arrests is 28 per cent.. That has happened not because the police service has become more idle or is not arresting people, but because the problem has been tackled and substantial progress has been made.
I have collected from the internet all the recent NCIS press releases. The press release of 6 August 1998 is headed, "Fall in domestic hooligan arrest figures continues" although concern is expressed about the violent hardcore that remains. The press release states:
I agree with every hon. Member who says that 258 crimes of violence are 258 too many. Although I am concerned about some of the arguments that Liberty has advanced in respect of the Bill, I have never been regarded as a great civil libertarian and I am quite happy, not merely to take away the passports of the 258 people convicted of crimes of violence, but to take away their freedom and their liberty and to put them inside one of Her Majesty's prisons for a considerable period. However, although I am concerned about the 258 people arrested and convicted last year for committing some crime of violence in connection with football, I am delighted to see that the latest Home Office statistics show a continuation of the trend that commenced under the previous Government and the stewardship of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard) and me, whereby there is a substantial drop in overall crime, even though the number of crimes against the person always edges up every year.
Of crimes against the person last year, there were 256,100 notifiable offences, 34,000 sexual offences, many of which were extremely and nastily violent, and 62,000 offences of robbery. Overall, there were 352,900 crimes of violence last year, whereas crimes of violence connected with football numbered 258. My point is simply that, although the House might be enthusiastic about additional measures to deal with the evil of football hooliganism, it is talking about 258 crimes. I have to ask whether the draconian measures in the Bill are proportionate to the problem, and whether we should not be taking other powers, or extending existing powers, to tackle the 32,000 reported rapes--and we all know that the actual number of rapes is greater than the reported number--or the 350,000 crimes of violence all told. I am concerned that we may be focusing on one problem and taking our eyes off the ball when it comes to crimes of violence in society. I am concerned that some parts of the Bill may go too far in dealing with a problem which, although nasty, is just a tiny part of the general violence in society that we must address.
Time is pressing, so I can touch on only a few of the many concerns that I have about the Bill that have been identified by the organisation Liberty. I shall advance my arguments in Committee--if I am unfortunate enough to serve on the Committee--or at some other time and seek answers from my hon. Friend the Member for West Chelmsford and from the Minister.
I am concerned about clause 1, which imposes a duty on the court to make an international football banning order where it has reasonable grounds to believe that would help prevent violence or disorder. What constitutes "reasonable grounds"? Does that represent a diminution in the normal criminal standards of proof? Liberty thinks it does--and I found in the past that Liberty was often correct. [Interruption.] This Government also ignore Liberty. I have fewer concerns about the drafting of this Bill than about the drafting of the Immigration and Asylum Bill, which is in Committee--but we will not mention that.
I am also concerned about clause 2. What safeguards will there be to ensure that the police and the courts do not take disproportionate action? What criteria will be used to determine whether an offence committed away from the ground is football related? I am concerned that youngsters of 14 could be caught up in unruly behaviour that may be classified as a football-related incident. Those kids would then be branded and stigmatised for 10 years, which is how long the banning order could apply. Those youngsters who were not real football hooligans would have those football-related offences hanging around their necks for longer than they deserved. I do not care what the law does to real football hooligans. I hope that they are punished severely--it serves them right. However, innocent people could be caught by the legislation.
How feasible will it be in practice to prosecute an individual on those grounds? What will be the burden of proof? Is there too much risk that such prosecutions will be overly dependent on police intelligence that might compromise other intelligence? I am concerned about the conditions and duty to report in clause 3. What guidance will be given as to what is "reasonably practicable"? What redress will be offered when a passport is unduly retained?
I heard what the Minister said about the advice that she has received about the European convention on human rights. She can do no better than consult lawyers about that issue. I hope, for her sake and for that of the Government, that the advice proves to be correct. It would be a unique occurrence if lawyers' opinions were found to be correct on every occasion. I am concerned about what advice the Minister will receive about my hon. Friend's suggestion regarding confiscating the passports of unconvicted people. We do not have time to go into that today, and I do not think the Minister has received advice about that issue. However, we shall want to return to that subject later as I think it has serious ECHR consequences.
Clause 4 deals with the duration and termination of orders. I shall put several questions about that to my hon. Friend on another occasion. I am concerned also about clause 6, "Domestic football banning orders"; and about clause 10 and ticket touting. My concerns are similar to those expressed by my hon. Friends. As to strengthening the rules on ticket touting, we voted to make ticket touting an offence not because we thought it was disgusting, unfair and commercially inappropriate but because touting broke the segregation rules, which we believed were essential in stopping violence. I hope to return to that subject later.
I return to the issue of whether the Bill is justified and absolutely necessary. As a Minister during the Euro 96 competition, I can confirm that the NCIS and the police conducted superb operations, although I take no credit for
that. I had the privilege of visiting the Metropolitan police control room and seeing all the European intelligence officers working fantastic, off-the-shelf Microsoft computer equipment, which was a first for the police service. The NCIS issued a statement saying that the cup matches were perfectly policed and that there were no major problems.
"Football arrest rates at domestic league matches in England and Wales dropped significantly during the 1997/98 season."
The rate is now down to 13.4 people per 100,000 spectators, which is welcome. The statistics help to put into context the overall level of criminality relating to football. Of the 3,307 arrests in 1997-98--slightly fewer than the year before--more than 1,000 were drink related. The only arrests for violent offences that I can find are: affray, 65; violent disorder, 52; throwing missiles, 31; and assault, 110--a total of 258 arrests.
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