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2.17 pm
Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale): Not for the first time this week, Parliament is discussing the age of majority. The difference between what happened in terms of the issue debated in the other place and what will happen in terms of the age issue in this Bill will be striking to many.
We congratulate the hon. Member for Calder Valley (Ms McCafferty) on her success in promoting the Bill. All hon. Members know that under-age drinking is a problem which must be tackled across a range of areas. The Opposition are generally persuaded that there is merit in endeavouring to close the loopholes in existing legislation, as the Bill seeks to do.
I am struck by the fact that many of the briefing notes relating to the Bill praise the efforts of my local trading standards authority, and the police, in North Yorkshire in tackling this problem. Their approach is cited as a model for others to follow. From personal knowledge, I would agree.
In particular, the authorities in North Yorkshire believe that they have addressed successfully some of the problems relating to test purchasing. There is concern about whether it is right to exploit those under 18 and,
equally, whether it is right to incite licensees to break the law. My understanding is that, in North Yorkshire, licensees are told in advance when an area is to be targeted so that they know only too well that they could fall into a trap.
I have some anxieties about the staff of licensees, some of whom may be young, and the need to ensure that any messages about the provisions are passed on to them, so that 19 or 20-year-old youngsters working behind a bar at the weekend to supplement their student grant--if they are lucky enough to have one--who sell drink to 17-year-olds do not suddenly find themselves in court. We ought to be able to iron out such anxieties during the further stages of the Bill, if it makes any progress.
I address my next remarks to the Minister. I and many of my hon. Friends have serious anxieties. If we are intent on strengthening the existing legislation, we must do more to ensure that people are able to know whether the young people to whom they sell alcohol are of the right age. That affects not only pubs but, more especially, off-licences.
I have taken the test--I am sure that other hon. Members have, too--in which one is asked to look at photographs and decide who is 18 and who is not. Interestingly, I got most of the boys right but most of the girls wrong. That shows how difficult it is for people at the cash desk of an off-licence or a small supermarket to identify who is 18. More must be done on identity.
Increasingly, in my experience, under-age drinking involves not only alcohol bought in pubs or off-licences. Vast quantities of alcohol that has been illegally imported in the cross-channel traffic are consumed. There have been several instances of that in my constituency. When the source of the alcohol is traced, it turns out to have come off the back of a van. It would be pointless to crack down on the professional trade and allow the smuggling to go unchecked.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. George Howarth):
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Calder Valley (Ms McCafferty) on her success in the ballot and warmly commend her choice of Bill, as well as the manner in which she introduced it. I share her concern about the unlawful sale of alcohol to young people and gladly support the Bill's intentions. I hope that it is supported widely and receives its Second Reading.
My hon. Friend described the Bill's provisions well. I will comment later on the points made by the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway), but I want first to concentrate on the right hon. Members for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) and for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth).
The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border served with some distinction at the Home Office for four years. He well knows that the concerns that the Bill addresses--about the link between early alcohol abuse and crime and disorder--as well as issues concerning the
safety of young people, have been around for some time. As I understand it, he has no objection to the specific measures in the Bill.
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst):
How do you know?
Mr. Howarth:
Because I spoke to him about it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
Order. We cannot have conversations across the Floor of the House.
Mr. Howarth:
If the right hon. Gentleman will refrain from sedentary interventions, I will refrain from responding to them.
The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border objects not to the Bill but to the procedures that may be involved in implementing it.
Mr. Maclean:
The Minister mentioned me and, as he is trying to be fair to me, I should make it clear that I have no concern about large parts of the Bill, the bulk of which deals with the sale of alcohol to under-age people. It is the test purchasing that worries me, and I deeply regret the fact that those provisions are in the Bill, without any of the safeguards that I consider essential. If they were not in the Bill, I could happily support it.
Mr. Howarth:
I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has given us that clarification, because the point could easily be debated in Committee--although I accept that it may be a matter of principle.
The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst served as an Education Minister in the previous Government for about two years.
Mr. Howarth:
I have no wish to underestimate the right hon. Gentleman's contribution. I recall one Friday when, across these Dispatch Boxes, we debated the issue of drugs, which are a matter of concern for many of us, and were of particular concern to him at that time, because he was an Education Minister. I know that, especially given his previous responsibilities, he has been, and still is, concerned about substance abuse, and I presume that that would cover alcohol and the effect that it can have on young people's lives, on families and on criminal behaviour.
I therefore appeal to both right hon. Gentlemen not to use the procedures of the House to stop the Bill making progress today. They both know that, if it does not receive a Second Reading today, it will almost certainly fail. My hon. Friend the Member for Calder Valley movingly described the events that took place in Pudsey, and similar events could easily happen again elsewhere, possibly costing lives. My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Mr. Truswell) has tried before to deal with those problems, but unfortunately he was defeated by procedure. I therefore hope that the right hon. Members for Penrith and The Border and for Bromley and Chislehurst will accept that any concerns that they may have can be dealt with in Committee.
The hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) talked about proof of age and about illegally imported alcohol. The Government are prepared to consider identity cards. The matter is under consideration, but we have not reached a final conclusion. In the meantime, there are proof-of-age cards. My hon. Friend the Member for Calder Valley mentioned the Portman Group card; there is also the Citizencard. At the moment we rely on those, and the Bill will give fresh impetus to both those schemes, which we welcome.
Illegally imported alcohol is indeed a serious problem, and my colleagues at the Treasury are aware of it, not least because of the loss of revenue involved. We intend in due course to introduce measures to deal it. We also recognise that it is a contributory factor to the problems that the Bill attempts to address.
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst):
I hope that the Minister is not suggesting that, however virtuous a Bill may appear to him or to many other people, it should have a right to go through the procedures of the House without proper debate and deliberation.
Mr. Howarth
indicated dissent.
Mr. Forth:
The hon. Gentleman seemed to be coming perilously close to saying that. I hope that he has given some thought to why, if the Government think that the measure is so valuable, they have not thought fit to introduce it in their own time.
On Fridays reserved for private Members' Bills, it is a source of puzzlement to some of us that we often have to deal with measures that appear to have originated from Government, or to be fulfilling some of the Government's pledges or programme, which the Government seem to expect to go through the private Members' Bills procedure without proper debate or deliberation. I hope that the Minister was not suggesting that.
Mr. Forth:
I am sure that he would not. However, for the sake of clarity, we must realise that, when a debate of the importance that the Minister attributes to this one starts after 2 pm on a Friday, when we all know that our time expires at 2.30, and when only the promoter of the Bill and two Front Benchers--no Back Benchers--have had time to speak, it is asking far too much of the House of Commons to say that the measure should be nodded through without further debate, following the Minister's contention that it can all somehow be cleaned up in Committee.
As it happens, I have a large number of questions to ask about the entrapment part of this Bill--
It being half-past Two o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
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