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Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Bruce: I was about to sit down, but I shall give way.
Mr. Rogers: The hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that Labour Front Benchers are being deceitful, is he?
Mr. Bruce: I cannot add anything to what the hon. Gentleman has said, but I think that Labour Front Benchers are very, very clever. I would never tell my constituents that they are a deceitful, lying bunch, because I am much too parliamentary. I say that they are very clever. We have new Labour, new economics, new arithmetic: it just has to be explained to people.
8.54 pm
Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North): It has been interesting to listen to the speeches today. They have shown, first, that many Opposition Members do not have much of a handle on what is in the Bill--a good deal of the debate has concerned what is not in it--and, secondly, that they do not have much of a handle on what they want to happen to the tax system and the income of the general public.
Opposition Members have spent a lot of time criticising what they call tax increases. Some have said that they are stealth taxes; others have said that they have been discussed publicly and that everyone knows about them. There is a lack of clarity there.
A number of Opposition Members have criticised the different types of spending that we are proposing which are not in the Bill but were in the Budget that the Bill implements. To a great extent, this is familiar territory for Labour Members, because we have heard Conservative Members criticising taxes and public spending before. However, those criticisms do not square with the latest relaunch of the Conservative party, which I heard being discussed quite fulsomely by the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley), the deputy leader of the Conservative party.
The right hon. Gentleman said that the Conservative party now understands that the public are generally concerned about the national health service, education and spending on them, and that people want more provision--not from the private sector, but in the public sector. The money has to come from somewhere; if it is public sector money, it has to come through taxation.
The Bill represents a fair judgment about taxation and where taxes should come from that also equates with the amount of money that the Government propose to spend on services. We have got that balance right, which has put an end to the futile discussions that used to go on about by how much taxes should go up or down. The public think that we have raised taxes through fair means and we have spent money on the things that people want money to be spent on, which accounts for the Government's continued good standing with the public. Although some might say that their standing is surprisingly high for this point in a parliamentary term, many of us have found that our constituents give a general welcome to the Budget, which is a tribute to the Government.
In many ways, the Bill is the mirror image of Conservative Finance Bills of the mid and late 1980s, which were extremely radical and extremely bold. Those Bills said clearly what the Conservatives wanted to happen in society and shifted money sharply from ordinary people to the privileged few. This Bill is part of the long-term and continued restructuring of the economy and of our society, which will ensure that people see that work pays. The Bill supports families and, more important, children. It also supports pensioners and small businesses. Conservative Members have talked about growth. The Bill will provide sustainable growth, which provides security and enables people to plan their lives and finances.
I shall pick out from the Bill proposals that deal with some of the financial issues confronting families and will solve some of the deep-seated problems with which families have to deal. In particular, I shall discuss the children's tax credit, the introduction of the new 10p rate and the raising of the threshold for national insurance contributions.
It is possible to over-egg a particular part of a proposal which, taken in the round, would help people on low and middle incomes. I am more concerned about my constituents who are on middle incomes than those on low incomes. The Bill will ensure that people are given incentives to work and to provide.
It is easy to underestimate the financial pressures that families face. I recently conducted a questionnaire survey in my constituency. It was linked to campaigning on a wider range of policies for families, but it is relevant to some of the issues that have arisen in the debate. All the findings pointed to money as the biggest problem for
families--and that in an area where most people are in work, so unemployment and hardship are not the issue. The fact remains that the incomes of working people are often inadequate to meet all the extra costs of bringing up children.
When people were asked what the biggest pressures on family life were, the answer that came out top for most people was finances, with balancing home and work in second place. When they were asked what would most help them to balance home and work, the single biggest issue mentioned by 25 to 40-year-olds--those with the biggest family responsibilities--was financial help with child care. For people going through family breakdown, too, the single biggest pressure identified was financial. We know from official statistics that those who are least likely to have savings are single parents and couples with children, and that having a child is the biggest likely indicator of poverty.
The proposals in the Bill, on top of the other measures introduced by the Government, will be of real help in providing the support that people want, which is financial help at the point of most need--when they have their children. That is why I welcome the children's tax credit provided for in the Bill.
I also welcome the fact that the credit is to be extended to stepchildren, which is a recognition that many children now live with step-parents, who often provide a supportive and caring home. The right hon. Member for Fylde (Mr. Jack) drew attention to the schedules, and talked about the problems of calculating who would get the credit when families split up. Of course that will be an issue, but I am glad that we are recognising the fact that families are changing. If we are serious about supporting children, we must support them where they are, not where we might like them to be.
The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) said that the Bill did not support marriage. However, the aim is to deal with the financial pressure points, not with issues about life-style choices. Looking after children is the financial pressure point.
I realise that the consequence of the introduction of the new credit is the abolition of the married couples allowance, which some people will regret. However, I believe that the Government have done the right thing in targeting children, and the parent who supports those children.
That is borne out by all the statistics about incomes and savings. A couple without children are likely to be among the more affluent in our society, especially now that so many women go out to work. It is not realistic to regard marriage of itself as a financial liability. Gone, thank goodness, are the days when a married man took financial responsibility for his wife. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) spoke clearly and eloquently about that. Having children, however, is a financial liability, and that is where the Government's help should be targeted.
The coming generation of women pensioners will be the first in which many have a proper record of contributions and savings for their pensions. It is therefore right that, as reflected in the Bill, we change the tax and benefit structure to ensure that those changes are carried through in a realistic way.
I am pleased to see that the married couples allowance is being retained for the over-65s. The lives of that generation were different; fewer women went out to work,
and more were financially dependent on their husbands. They have fewer opportunities to adjust their income, so I am glad that the Government are keeping the married couples allowance for them. That is a welcome recognition of their position.
I welcome the proposed increase in the threshold at which pensioners have to pay tax, and the higher threshold for over-75s. During a recent consultation about pensions organised by Nationwide on my behalf, a cross-section of its employees made it clear that they regarded self-provision, not state provision, as the future for pensions. What they looked for from the Government was a supportive tax regime, rather than a series of handouts.
Many of today's pensioners have occupational pensions and other sources of income, and for them tax relief is the most effective form of financial help. That applies to many of the pensioners in my constituency. They are not reliant only on the basic state pension and associated benefits. The changes set out in the Bill are part of a wide-ranging series of changes for pensioners that I believe will make the Labour party the party for pensioners, just as it has made it the party for families. The right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) tried to cast aspersions on the Labour party's record on pensions. That was a smokescreen to hide his party's failure over the pension mis-selling scandal.
The Labour Government have introduced the minimum income guarantee, the change to the threshold and the pension for carers, which will be extremely important in ensuring a continued level of contribution for women who look after children at home or disabled relatives. That, more than anything else, will encourage the caring attitude and support for family life that the Conservative party says it believes in but does little to promote.
I should like briefly to deal with savings because, although those measures are not in the Bill, they have been discussed at great length. Much of the discussion has been misdirected and destructive of some of the changes that will affect people and for which the Government are right to make provision. Much has been made of the high level of PEP and TESSA sales, especially in the past year. Those sales have resulted from major advertising campaigns. I would have expected people to pile into those savings vehicles during the last few months for which they were available.
The individual savings account deals with some of the changes in the financial regime that people will face. The hon. Member for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce) said that high interest rates were good for savers. It is true that they were good for savers, but wildly fluctuating interest rates were extremely damaging to many private individuals and to industry. The regime into which we are now entering will, I hope, be a permanent one of sustainably low interest rates. That means that some of the conventional savings vehicles will not be so attractive. I believe that the individual savings account will enable people to have different types of savings, including equity-based savings, which will provide them with advantages that have so far been reserved for people on higher incomes.
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