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Mr. Collins: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who makes a very good point. To build on that point, let me say that I very much hope that the commission will not merely identify best practice in the abstract in the sense of, "Here is a list of good things that some companies are doing in various parts of the country," but will publicise specific case studies. I hope that it will give good publicity to companies large and small that are operating in compliance with the law, and, I hope, in many instances going beyond the requirements of the law.

Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South): Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that, while perhaps in 99 per cent. of cases it will be possible to reach an agreement about discrimination that has been faced, there will always be a small minority--I speak as one of those who have faced discrimination--of employers who have blind, naked prejudice, and will not employ a disabled person irrespective of whatever persuasion is used? In those cases, it is absolutely right that the commission is able to take decisive action.

Mr. Collins: I entirely agree with the hon. Lady. I was going to make that point. In fairness to the Minister, that is what he said. He said that he would prefer it to be possible for there to be conciliation, but added that it was important that the commission should have teeth in dealing with the minority. I hope that the hon. Lady is right and that the minority is as small as 1 per cent. I do not propose to put a figure on it because I simply do not know what it is. However, it is clear that there are problems outside the House and that the commission needs to deal with them. I hope that it will be able to do so with the minimum of fuss, but it needs to have teeth.

A dramatic illustration was given in the other place by Lord Ashley of Stoke, who, in that place as in this, has been a long-standing campaigner on these issues, and the spearhead of many campaigns. He rightly referred to the research of the Royal National Institute for Deaf People, which stated that


If that is what independent research is establishing, there is a real problem.

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The hon. Lady is right to say that such discrimination will often stem from ill-informed prejudice. Such long-standing social attitudes need to be challenged and changed, as is reflected in the welcome progress that has been made generally over the past 20 or 25 years in tackling prejudice on the basis of sex or race. I would not pretend that, as a country, we have eliminated all forms of prejudice in those areas, but we have moved dramatically forward in that time.

I would not say that the only reason for progress in those areas has been the existence of the Equal Opportunities Commission and the Commission for Racial Equality, but undoubtedly they have played their part. I hope that, in 10 or 15 years' time, the existence, the visibility and the practical effect of prejudice against disabled people will have declined at least as sharply as has discrimination on the basis of sex or race over the past 15 or 20 years.

I said that I would make one or two detailed points, and I shall do so. We have already briefly touched on funding. I entirely understand the Minister's reluctance to go beyond what has already been said on the matter. I understand also the reasons that he has set out for arriving at the figure of £11 million for the commission. However, I am intrigued to note that the Government are proposing, at least in the interim, to roll the £11 million forward for the second full operational year.

We all know--I am sure that the Government would be delighted to trumpet the fact--that inflation is at a relatively low level, but it is not non-existent. It is a fact that £11 million in three years' time will not buy as much as £11 million in two years' time. I hope that, at the minimum, the Government will be prepared to consider rolling over the funding in line with inflation, or at least in line with the increases that are provided for the Equal Opportunities Commission and the Commission for Racial Equality.

A central feature of the debate should be to establish that the early years of the commission will be critical. We all hope that the commission will be around for a long time, but the early years will be especially important. That is why it needs to have a flying start.

That brings me to my next point, on which the Minister was kind enough to take an intervention from me. It relates to the identity of the chair of the new commission. The Minister made the perfectly fair point that he feels that, if he were to commit himself in the Bill to employing a person with a disability, or with a history of disability, that might be seen as a gesture of tokenism. Of course, there is already in the Bill a requirement that the chair or the deputy chair should be in that category, and that a majority of members should be in it.

I put it gently to the Minister that, given that one of the primary information roles of the commission will be to try to persuade as many people as possible as quickly as possible that people with disabilities, or a history of disabilities, often are the best men or women for a job, it might seem curious that, when looking for the first chair of the commission, it is not possible to find someone in that category. I know that the Minister probably will not want to go any further. I think that I have probably chivvied him enough. I see from the nods that I am receiving from some Labour Members that there is a degree of support for my proposition. I will leave it at that with the Minister, with the strong hope that he will be

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able to find, as I believe he will, someone eminently qualified who happens to be disabled, or has a history of disability.

Another matter that was discussed in the other place in relation to the composition of the commission was taken up by Lord Rix, who has a strong record of work on behalf of Mencap and other charities that deal with people with mental illnesses. He made the point that physical and mental disabilities are not the same. However, they can often result in similar forms of prejudice. They need to be tackled with the same vigour but they do not raise the same issues. Lord Rix expressed a strong hope that, on the commission, there will be someone who has knowledge, and possibly personal experience, of dealing with a mental handicap or disability.

Again, I appreciate that the Minister will not want to commit himself to turning the commission into a body that represents each and every separate form of disability, and that is reasonable. However, I hope that he will reflect on what Lord Rix had to say and recognise that there is an important distinction between physical and mental disability.

The commission will represent the 8.5 million people in this country who, according to the right hon. Member for Coatbridge and Chryston (Mr. Clarke), have a disability. It will be considered to be immensely important to them, and its 10 or 15 members will rightly receive a huge amount of publicity. They will be seen as spearheads--the vanguard--for the whole of the disabled community. There is a distinction between physical and mental disability, but both groups should be represented on the commission.

We need to look at the informative role of the commission in a little more detail. Earlier today, I consulted the rather good website put up by the National Disability Council at www.disability.org.gov.uk, which contains a lot of good material. The Minister would be the first to acknowledge that the internet is becoming a hugely significant source of information, particularly for people with disabilities, and plays a great role in the developing world of commerce. The commission will clearly be at the nexus of commerce and those with disabilities, so its internet commitment will be crucial.

I return to my point about the commission having a flying start. I hope that resources adequate for achieving a strong internet presence, from day one, have been identified in the set-up costs--we all know how websites can grow. It is difficult to update them, although that is the absolute priority. Those of us with parliamentary websites may think that they are terrific, but we may forget about them and, a few weeks later, people say, "Your website is a bit out of date." We must get the internet presence right at the start, and I hope that the Minister has something to say about that.

The commission must be seen to be concerned with the way for the future: although it is most definitely about tackling the prejudices and removing the oversights of the past, and improving the present, it has to be at the leading edge, making an exciting statement about the way that Britain sees itself on the threshold of the new millennium--and, I hope, a long way into it.

In that context, the Government--perhaps understandably, because, at this stage, they want to maintain a degree of flexibility for themselves--have been a little vague on the timing of the establishment of

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the commission. I understand that they hope that it will get going in 2000, but they have not yet committed themselves to a precise month or date. If the Minister wishes to correct me, I am more than happy to give way.

Ms Hodge: I have said on a number of occasions that I hope that the commission will open its doors for business in April 2000.


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