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4.23 pm
Mr. John Heppell (Nottingham, East): I do not know what I have done to incur your displeasure, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I must have done something to deserve punishment. How can I follow my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg)?
I welcome the Bill for several reasons. While the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 is not worthless without such legislation, it is much devalued. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Berry) said, that Act has many failings, but the biggest failing was that it did not introduce a Disability Rights Commission. That view is now shared by hon. Members on both sides of the House. It certainly was not before.
The Disability Discrimination Act made it illegal to discriminate against people with disabilities, but there was no real mechanism for doing anything about it.If a council, multinational company or Department discriminated against someone, that person could do nothing. Individuals cannot take on big organisations. People had rights but could not exercise them. Rights that cannot be exercised are not rights. People had rights in theory only. I hope that the Bill will mean that people have rights in practice.
The Bill will not end discrimination against people with disabilities or change people's attitudes at a stroke. It will not be the final legislation on discrimination against
people with disabilities, but it is a step in the right direction. It is important to recognise that. We struggled so long to achieve the Disability Rights Commission that we have almost started to regard it as an end in itself. People think that once we have it, everything will be rosy. That is not the case. Anyone who believes that we can forget about disability, relax and sit on our laurels because a Labour Government have introduced a commission is wrong.
The commission is only the beginning. The Disability Discrimination Act was a step in the right direction, partly because it was much amended by the then Opposition, with the help of many disabled organisations. The Bill, too, is such a step. That is why I am not so concerned about some of the details. I see no compelling reason why employers should be outside the Act because they employ fewer than 15 people, any more than I could see a compelling reason for the figure to be 20. Legislation could be framed to include all employers. I am not too worried that that is not in this Bill.
Similarly, I am not sure about the funding. I want to be persuaded that there is enough money to ensure that we do things properly. Introducing written agreements earlier seems sensible, but I am not worried if it is not in the Bill. Once the commission is established, it will be able to consider such things itself. It will help shape future changes by advising the Government on how to amend the Disability Discrimination Act and on what else needs to change. I fear that we could fall into the trap of trying to do the commission's job for it by putting everything in the Bill when such matters should be considered by it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood rightly said that the Disability Discrimination Act was designed on the hoof. I fear that we might end up designing the commission on the hoof. That would be a bad example to follow--although I can think of even worse ones. Hon. Members will remember how everyone thought that all the ideas for the Child Support Agency were great. There was not much debate, but it seemed sensible, so away we went. I may be thought over-cautious, but considered views from the commission before we move forward might be a good thing.
The hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) quoted a part of the Confederation of British Industry brief that showed it to favour the Bill strongly. A few paragraphs on, the CBI expressed real concerns and seemed suspicious of the direction in which the commission was heading. We must do our best to dispel such mistrust. The legislation must work for people with disabilities, but it must also work for the rest of the community, including the business community. I am not apologising for the CBI, but if we can get consensus, it is well worth doing.
I am particularly pleased that the commission will have a majority of disabled people on it. When I read that, it made me think of a few years back when, in another life, I was a county councillor. I was chair of the equal opportunities committee. I got involved in a controversial problem. People will be amazed to learn that a deaf school would not allow the children to sign, even at playtime. The people who served the meals were told that the children had to keep their hands at their side. They were not allowed to sign to each other. I may be getting a little long in the tooth, but we are not talking about Dickensian times. It was just a few years ago. I went to a meeting
called at the local Deaf Society by the parents of the deaf children, many of whom were deaf themselves. I heard them putting their views forcefully. They wanted their children to be able to communicate not just at school but back at home, with them. I also listened to the professionals saying why they did not allow the children to sign at the school.
I came to one conclusion. If you want to know anything about deafness, ask deaf people. If you want to know anything about disability, ask people with a disability. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South has demonstrated that today with her speech. We cannot do better than listen to the people who know what it is like to live with the problems day by day.
I am proud that a Labour Government have introduced a Disability Rights Commission with an enormous and powerful role. It will work towards the elimination of discrimination against disabled people and promote equality of opportunity for them. It will assist people in taking cases forward. I agree with what the hon. Member for Maidenhead said about consensus. If we can work by consensus and conciliation, great, but the truth is that it is difficult to reason with prejudice. Prejudice defies logic. There will be times when we have to resort to the legislation. Individuals cannot do that on their own, without the help of the commission. The Bill is an enormous step forward. It will make it more likely that conciliation and voluntary agreements will work. People will know that there is a stopping point at the end.
The commission will prepare codes of practice and guidance. It will arrange for independent conciliation. It will also provide information and support to employers and others. That has been a problem in the past. Some people discriminate just through ignorance. If there is better understanding of the problems, there will not be so much discrimination. I am pleased and proud that I am part of a Government who are making that possible.
The hon. Member for Maidenhead annoyed me a little when she said that before the election the Labour party's view had been that there should be no small employer threshold. She implied that disabled people were disillusioned; that they felt that now the Labour party was in government its views had changed and that they felt let down. I do not believe that that is the case. In our 1997 manifesto, we said:
In the Labour party we used to have a real problem with what was called the militant tendency. That has well and truly gone now, but we sometimes have a problem with what I like to term the Monty Python tendency.
Members of my party say, "What are you going to do about pensioners?" I say that we are trying to introduce half-fare bus passes, that we have cut VAT on fuel and that we have given them £100 towards their fuel bills. So they say, "Yeah, yeah, but what about nursery education?" I say that we are guaranteeing a nursery place for every four-year-old. They say, "Yeah, yeah, but what about schools?" I say that we are trying to cut class sizes. So it goes on. I am sure that the Monty Python tendency does not exist among disabled groups because they can see that since May 1997, the Government have set up the disability rights task force, led by my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East (Mr. Howarth). In some respects, my hon. Friend demonstrated his principles more than anyone under the previous Government by the tremendous decision that he made in reaction to what the Tory Government were doing to disabled people. We are making progress now with the Disability Rights Commission Bill. We are implementing new rights of access. We have extended the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 to employers with 15 rather than 20 employees. We have announced £195 million for the new deal for disabled people.
Mrs. May:
I have been listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman's points in response to my comments about disappointment among disabled organisations about certain aspects of the Government's policies. I suggest that he looks at the disability audit conducted by the Royal Association for Disability and Rehabilitation. In its general comment on its overall finding, it said:
"We will seek to end unjustifiable discrimination wherever it exists. We support comprehensive, enforceable civil rights for disabled people against discrimination in society or at work, developed in partnership with all interested parties."
Just before the election, I attended a disabled people's group, as a poor substitute for my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Chryston (Mr. Clarke). I told them what the Labour party's policy was, and that we would introduce a commission. The members of the group were sceptical. It was a case of, "Oh, yes, we have heard this before. This is before the election. Wait until after the election." After the election, I still faced a fair amount of scepticism, because we could not legislate for everything in the first few months. There was a feeling in many disabled organisations that the legislation was never going to materialise.
"Disabled people feel broadly pleased with the Labour Government's policy on civil rights, but are worried by welfare reform and by other issues which have less of a public profile."
I did not see the hon. Gentleman at the disability organisations' lobby of Parliament in Westminster Hall before Easter. I apologise to him if he was there, but if he had attended he would have heard some real concerns expressed by disabled people about certain aspects of his Government's policy.
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