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Mr. John Healey (Wentworth): I strongly support the Bill and welcome its arrival from the other place. As hon. Members have noted, it has had widespread support from disabled people and their organisations, because they had such a strong say in shaping the Bill through the disability rights task force. The work of the task force has given great strength to the plans for the commission in the Bill.
I should like to pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend the present Minister for the Arts and former Minister with responsibility for disabled people. He oversaw the setting up of the task force, chaired it in its early days and led the unanimous, inclusive and innovative way in which it did its work. I also pay tribute to his successor, the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Employment, my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Ms Hodge), who took up and continued that work.
I am proud to be a Member of Parliament on the Government Benches when the Government are introducing legislation to set up the Disability Rights Commission. It delivers the commitment in our manifesto as part of introducing enforceable and comprehensive civil rights for disabled people. The commission largely gives us enforceability. However, disabled people will still not have comprehensive rights, as my right hon. Friend the Minister for Employment, Welfare to Work and Equal Opportunities mentioned.
It is difficult to overstate how important this development is for disabled people and disability organisations; it is historic. It is a landmark in civil rights legislation for the 8.5 million disabled people in Britain.
When I first became involved in disability campaigning, more than 15 years ago, we had barely conceived of a Disability Rights Commission and had hardly dared hope for one. At that time, I had the opportunity to work with MIND, the privilege to work for the all-party disablement group in its Ashley-Hannam heyday, and the great pleasure to work with my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Chryston (Mr. Clarke), who pulled together and fought so hard for his Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986.
In the early days, the all-party group was of inestimable importance in giving a voice to disabled people and their concerns. It was crucial to encourage growing political awareness and skill among disabled people and their organisations. Leading members of that group are in the Chamber and have contributed to the debate. They include my hon. Friends the Members for Kingswood (Mr. Berry) and for North-East Derbyshire (Mr. Barnes), my hon. Friend the Minister for the Arts, the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) and the right hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley), who is not here, but who I know will wish that he were.
The work of the group over more than 25 years has laid part of the political ground for today's debate and, in particular, for the all-party consensus that now exists behind the Bill. I simply regret that the recognition that the commission is such an essential part of implementing disability legislation has eluded the Conservative party for so long.
There is no doubt that the lack of a commission has imposed a serious limit on redress for disabled people who suffer discrimination under the Disability Discrimination Act. There is no doubt that the lack of a commission has been a serious gap for those individuals, employers and service providers who have been looking for advice on how to implement legislation properly.
Equally, there is no doubt that the advent of the commission will enable disabled people to gain greater equality of opportunity, greater access and greater self-determination. It will enable employers and service providers to gain advice, information and practical support to help them to understand and to implement anti-discrimination legislation.
Having said that, the challenge remains immense. Discrimination against disabled people is long-standing, comprehensive and institutionalised. As my right hon. Friend the Minister reminded the House, our ultimate aims must be to remove discrimination, to challenge attitudes and to realise full civil rights for disabled people. The commission is not an end in itself, but a powerful means towards those greater ends.
I should like to deal with two issues that will be central to the success of the commission's work, although they are not addressed directly in the Bill. The first is funding.
Much has been made of comparisons between the budgets of the Disability Rights Commission and the Commission for Racial Equality. Disability organisations, in their various briefings and discussions with hon. Members, have stressed their concerns about the potential shortfall in the funding that has so far been budgeted; and
I should expect no less. It is the duty and in the nature of interest lobbies to pocket what they are offered, and then to ask for more. The disability lobby is no different from any other lobby. It may be more effective, but it is no different.
Ultimately, it may prove that the budget for the Disability Rights Commission is not sufficient. I welcome my right hon. Friend the Minister's statement that the budget is not set in stone, and his commitment that he and his colleagues will review it in the light of operational experience. I should tell him that that ministerial promise will be closely watched by hon. Members and by the disability movement. Nevertheless, while perhaps gently cautioning Ministers, we should also congratulate them. I know--and, in private, the disability lobby will acknowledge--that the budget allocated to the commission has been hard fought for and hard won.
As I am laying down markers for the future, I should mention my second concern, which is the availability of technical support from the commission. The commission will have to ensure that such support and its other activities are available--not only regionally, but locally--to disabled people. For someone living in Wath, Rawmarsh or Dalton in my constituency, communication with or travel to a regional office based in Leeds or Newcastle, for example, can be just as difficult as dealing with a centre in London or Birmingham.
The Government have said that the commission will be able to call on the support and expertise of local voluntary bodies, but, in areas such as Rotherham, voluntary sector activity remains underdeveloped, and we simply do not have local groups with the necessary experience or expertise. Therefore, we need the commission--directly, and in partnership with local authorities, training and enterprise councils and voluntary sector umbrella bodies--to invest in building that capacity to make the commission's work effective and available locally. I believe that this can be done, but it will take time and a determination to do so.
In conclusion, I should like simply to underline the Bill's crucial importance, and the very widespread support that it has received. I should perhaps leave the final word to the all-party disablement group, which describes the Bill as
Mrs. Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton):
We have had a very constructive debate, which started with the Minister making his speech in a spirit of good will. Although there has been just a tad of sniper fire from Labour Back Benchers, hon. Members who have been in the Chamber for the entire debate, as many have been, will have no doubt that there is a will in the House to ensure not only that the Disability Rights Commission is established in legislation, but that it is effective.
An extremely important aspect of the debate, which has been dealt with by many hon. Members on both sides of the House, has been that the commission will have to work to meet the quite justified expectations of those who will depend on it, sometimes in circumstances that are critical in their lives.
People with disabilities will need support if they have, in whatever way, to challenge the establishment. If they are to rely on the commission, as they should be able to do, it is incumbent on hon. Members on both sides of the House to ensure that, as the Bill is passed, we examine its detail and get that as right as we can make it. We should ensure that we do that for people with disabilities, who are the ones who will have to use the Bill's provisions.
In opening the debate, the Minister said that the Government were about to start a three-year campaign of winning hearts and minds. I welcome that. However, Ministers will know that, very often, particularly when resources are scarce, it is difficult to know how to target a campaign that is rather broadly phrased. The Minister will be aware that sheer prejudice against people with disabilities--some of which is not based on ignorance--is the hardest thing to overcome. We must recognise that another generation will be coming along shortly on whom we must target our campaign, and we must make sure that the message is renewed.
I welcome the Minister's statement, but I hope that he will ensure that, however succesful he feels the three-year campaign has been, that will not be the end of it. I hope that there will be continuity and that whatever lessons are learned are used for future campaigns.
There are many reasons for discrimination; sometimes it is just pure ignorance. In many cases, it is quite deliberate. It is important to try to understand and second-guess what motivates that prejudice if it is ever to be tackled to benefit people with disabilities.
I do not know whether I shall be fortunate in being asked to serve on the Committee; I would like to do so. Many who have spoken from both sides of the House have raised issues about individual clauses of the Bill, which many of us would like to see examined in more detail. Therefore, it is not my intention to pre-empt the Committee's discussions. I take it from the body language of Ministers that they welcome that. I hope that they will listen not just to hon. Members, but to those important representatives of the various groups representing the disability organisations which have played a key part in this and previous Bills.
The hon. Member for Kingswood (Mr. Berry) was the first to pay tribute to the work of the many organisations with whom hon. Members have regular contact. I hope that there will be continuing dialogue involving Government Front Benchers while the Bill is in Committee. I will refer to some general points, in the hope that we can get down to the nitty-gritty in Committee.
It is important that the funding meets the reality of expectations. As has been said, if there is insufficient money for the commission--particularly in the early years--there will be a problem. Welcome as it is that the Government have made a commitment of £3 million for the first year and £11 million for the following two years, the latter figure will be a reduction unless it is linked to inflation or unless the reality of the costs in the first year are examined in some detail.
Will the Government propose a business plan for this commission in particular, rather than basing a plan on the work of other commissions? There may be lessons to be learned, but a proper business plan would be helpful, if only as a benchmark for years two and three in terms of the financial structure.
The Minister for the Arts, the hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Howarth), has been mentioned several times in connection with the setting up of the task force, which has done a lot of preparation--which we commend. He and I had an exchange of correspondence at the beginning of the process, as I was particularly concerned that people with learning disabilities should be represented on the task force.
Ministers must look carefully at the definition of disability as it will be applied by the commission. It is my understanding that the definition in the 1995 Act will be used. That Act defines disability as
The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Twigg) mentioned epilepsy and the Minister said that the definition would encompass it. That is welcome, but I wonder whether it is the Government's intention to produce a list of conditions, such as epilepsy, that are to be considered as disabilities under that definition. If so, what are the criteria under which organisations would have to make representations for conditions that are not on the list to be considered for inclusion?
I have a special interest in learning disabilities and developmental disorders. I know that it is a grey area. The hon. Member for High Peak (Mr. Levitt) mentioned Down's syndrome. That, along with cerebral palsy and autistic spectrum disorders, is a condition regarding which people in the medical profession might sometimes be at odds with one another as to whether it could medically be regarded as a learning disability. The benchmark that they tend to use is an IQ test; if the individual concerned has an IQ of more than 70, it is not necessarily defined as a learning disability.
We can all think of many people who could be medically diagnosed as having an autistic spectrum disorder, cerebral palsy or Down's syndrome who have very high IQs. Some have good university degrees. That does not mean that their ability to carry out normal day-to-day tasks, as per the 1995 definition, is not impaired. They have real needs that must be met.
People with such conditions who have good qualifications or are articulate in many ways might find real difficulties in applying for or holding down jobs. If the Minister is to produce a definitive list, we must not have people on the commission who do not understand the areas of disability that do not fit neatly into compartments. Such areas would be involved in some of the most difficult cases that I would certainly want to be referred to the commission.
How is the list to be drawn up and how can it be changed from time to time as different diagnoses and conditions are recognised? Will the individual doctor with care of the disabled person have to give consent? Many of the people to whom I have referred have a real battle with their own GPs or hospital consultants and are not properly diagnosed until a specialist with lifelong experience in dealing with their conditions becomes involved. Only then does someone in the medical profession understand the read-across of the diagnosis and the way in which it is likely to impact on someone's day-to-day life. I hope the Minister accepts that definition is important.
Equally important are the people who will work for the commission and deal with such cases. We discussed whether the chair or the vice-chair of the commission should be a person with a disability. I agree with what has been said on both sides of the House. I am sure that there will be no difficulty in finding people to fill those posts on merit. That should not preclude the possibility that both may be people with a disability. We still speak in terms of one or other having a disability, but if we are serious about equality, we should recognise that the two best candidates interviewed for the posts of chairman and vice-chairman may both be people with a disability. I hope that we will eliminate tokenism. Like other hon. Members, I know from experience that many of the principals who represent the charitable sector are extremely able people who, I am sure, will be lining up for the jobs. There will be no shortage of candidates.
On the day-to-day administration of the commission and the technical support required, can the Minister give me an assurance that there will be on-going training for people working for the commission across a range of disabilities? I know that the Minister received many representations about the task force. He struggled to persuade everyone who had an interest in the composition of the task force that every conceivable disability would be represented. I understand that that was an impossible task, but it did not stop me or others making representations to him.
Although a high percentage of its members will be people with disabilities, the task force will not necessarily be able to make a judgment on every case that comes before it. There must be a proper on-going training programme. Has the Minister considered who the commission will be able to call on, when necessary, for professional information about a particular disability? Some disabilities are quite rare. A constituent of mine is one of only 28 people in the country with a rare condition. However good the training, it would be impossible for the commission to make a clear judgment on such a case. Moreover, there are only a few people in the country who specialise in that condition. I hope that the Minister will consider such practical aspects of the commission's work.
There has been much discussion today about the difficulties of people who have been the subject of prejudice and discrimination. We heard first-hand accounts of such experience from the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg) and others.
The hon. Member for Ilford, North (Ms Perham) was anxious that the commission should comprise people with disabilities and professionals. She warned against filling the commission with parents, for example. However, some of the strongest advocates of people with disabilities are parents. That does not mean that they know better than the person with the disability, but the discrimination is not always directed against the person with the disability. Service providers sometimes direct such discrimination against those who have responsibility, but the person with the disability suffers just the same.
"a crucial element of the Government's strategy to ensure 'comprehensive and enforceable civil rights legislation at work and in society' for disabled people".
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"a physical or mental impairment which has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities".
That is perfectly reasonable, but I seek some clarification.
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