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Ms Perham: I do not want to give the impression that the experience of parents is to be denigrated. More than half of the commission is to be made up of people with disabilities and I wanted to highlight their experience. With the best will in the world, the parents are not suffering from the disability, however great their experience of looking after the person with the disability. I meant no disrespect to parents and I pay tribute to them for the work that they do on behalf of their children.
Mrs. Browning: I do not want to get this out of proportion. I hope that the hon. Lady will recognise that sometimes it suits the establishment, if I may use the expression, to sideline the parent or advocate in order not to provide what the person with the disability needs. Unless the parent or advocate is prepared to stand their ground to get an issue sorted for the person with the disability, it does not happen. That is why I am making a case on their behalf. When they fight a battle on behalf of that person they suffer the pain, too, when the discrimination is obviously in front of them. I am sure that we can deal with that in more detail in Committee.
A further important part of the Bill concerns the conciliation of disputes and I welcome it. Many people have, rightly, welcomed the tone of the legislation, which seeks to facilitate disputes being sorted out on a conciliatory basis. That is important, not least because the individual who is discriminated against does not always want to go to the wire. It can add to their stress and subtract from their quality of life to be involved in litigation that may run on for months and sometimes even years. Litigation is not pleasant for anybody to go through and it is even less so for somebody who is trying to get fairness and equality in their life and who contends with pain and distress in other ways.
At the end of the day, it is right that the Bill gives the commission the statutory powers that it may have to use in the few cases--we hope it will be only a very few--where it needs the support of the legislation if the other measures do not work. That is welcome.
I wish to press the Minister on the provision to claw back the commission's expenses when a settlement is made, including an out-of-court settlement. As I understand it, the costs of the commission in championing the cause of an individual would be clawed back if there was a settlement. I know that the matter was mentioned in the other place during the Bill's passage. Bearing in mind the representations of the other place, what are the Minister's thoughts not just about the itemised account of genuine costs when costs have been awarded, but when costs come from a sum that has been clearly identified as compensation? The Minister shakes her head. I hope that I can interpret that to mean that there would be no attempt to recoup those costs. That is welcome. For those who may find themselves in a position where those costs must be met, what plans are there for the commission to produce in advance a tariff of reasonable charges? Will there be any guidance to the commission on what is chargeable on an hourly or a daily basis? That is necessary
to ensure that there is no further dispute about the costs awarded or what the commission may claim as legitimate expenses in such cases. There could be many horrible disputes over that unless what the commission can charge is clearly defined. Other professionals such as solicitors can outline what charges may be expected in their work. It is important to deal with that up front rather than when cases start to appear, to avoid further challenges about how much of the money should be used and whether expenses are legitimate. It is important for the commission, in terms of auditing procedures, that a tariff of reasonable charges is considered and made known in advance.
We had some sniping from the Back Benches, which I take in good spirit. I want to share with the House a few words from Hansard:
Mr. Andrew Smith:
Unfortunately.
Mrs. Browning:
Unfortunately, I was still in a job and went on to become a Minister. I hope that that story will give heart to new Members who think that always doing what the Whips want is the way to get on in the House. The Whips look furious with me. I hope that I have confounded that myth, because I was passionate about this issue when I came into the House. I hope that I have demonstrated that today. I wish the Bill godspeed and every success.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Employment (Ms Margaret Hodge):
This has been a thoughtful, high-quality and sometimes moving debate. The Government's proposals have been warmly welcomed outside the House by disabled people, businesses and the wider community. Of those who responded to our White Paper consultation, 94 per cent. supported our proposals on the role of the commission.
I am delighted that our proposals have received such strong support from hon. Members on both sides of the House. In opposition, we argued for such a commission to give force to civil rights legislation. In government, we can now legislate to fulfil our manifesto promise. In so doing, we shall not only be able to support disabled people in exercising their basic rights but help business to benefit from the contribution that disabled people can make as employers and customers. Several Government and Opposition Members raised significant issues. In the upper House, the Government listened carefully to some
persuasive arguments. When persuaded, we adopted proposals to improve the Bill. That will be our approach as the Bill moves through this House.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg) painted a compelling picture of her personal experience and the day-to-day discrimination that she faces. I share her longing for the day when she can get into the toilet without having to negotiate a barbecue. My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Mr. Barnes) also welcomed the Bill and said that he felt like a Man United supporter; as an Arsenal fan, I cannot say that, but I am, as he is, euphoric about the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth (Mr. Healey) paid tribute to the all-party disablement group, and I join him in those tributes. My hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Mr. Levitt) made a moving speech. I congratulate him on the work that he has done within the House and outside, especially on behalf of deaf people and those with hearing impairment.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Heppell) said, this is but the first step in developing comprehensive rights for disabled people. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Ms Perham) talked about her worry about recovery of costs. I assure her and the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) that there is no proposal to take costs from awards. It is where costs are awarded against someone else that that matters.
A number of hon. Members asked about the chair of the Disability Rights Commission. It is inconceivable that the first chair will not be a disabled person, but as hon. Members on both sides of the House have argued, it would be wrong to put that in the Bill. I hope that the members of the commission will represent a broad range of interests, but even if not, 150 people or so will work for the commission, and they will be able to work on behalf of disabled people.
Of course we want to work with business, as the hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) and the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Collins) said we should. We will work best in co-operation rather than by using compulsion to implement civil rights. It is for that reason that we have taken steps such as introducing written agreements to create an easier flow towards civil rights in employment or the supply of goods and services, and introducing non-discrimination notices. I hope that, during proceedings on the Bill, we can deal with many of the detailed issues that hon. Members have raised today.
I have to say to the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Oaten) that we did not set the threshold for the small firms exemption. We inherited it. That was one of the problems. It was the legacy from which we had to start. We have grasped the opportunity to change the process for reviewing the threshold so that it can be reduced more swiftly. There is general acceptance among Labour Members that over time we want to see an end to discrimination against disabled people, whatever the size of the business in which they work.
The subject of funding has been raised by many hon. Members today, including the hon. Member for Maidenhead, my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Chryston (Mr. Clarke), the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Berry), the hon. Member for
Winchester and my hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth, who said that the disability lobby would of course always argue for more.
The estimates that we have presented are provisional estimates within the three-year settlement from the Treasury. We will review them as we proceed with the Bill, but they are a fair settlement and I think that we have got it about right.
The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale raised the issue of funding for information technology. As other hon. Members have said, we are the first Department to put papers such as those from the disability rights task force on the internet. That has excited a lot of discussion and debate on the proposals, and that is a way in which we wish to proceed in the future.
The hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) raised some issues relating to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland has its own Equality Commission, but that does not mean reduced rights for disabled people there compared with those in the rest of the United Kingdom. We intend that they should have the same rights. In response to concerns raised by disability organisations, we made significant amendments to the legislation. As a result of that, the Equality Commission may establish consultative councils to provide advice on aspects of equality.
Several hon. Members raised the flaws that we know exist in the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, including the hon. Member for Winchester, my hon. Friends the Members for Kingswood, for Warrington, South(Ms Southworth) and for North-East Derbyshire. We are currently addressing many of those issues of principle in the disability rights task force, and we will report towards the end of the year, but rights of access to education and transport and whether the police should be subject to disability discrimination legislation are live issues on which we will return to the House.
My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington, South made a moving speech, in which she described the Disability Rights Commission as the engine to the vehicle that was established by the Disability Discrimination Act. I was pleased that she welcomed the new deal for disabled people, which I consider an extremely important component of our legislation.
This is a momentous day for disabled people. For far too many years, they have campaigned within their communities, through the media and in both Houses of Parliament for their own commission to defend and promote their civil rights. They have not been asking for a lot--simply for the opportunity to enjoy those basic rights that every able-bodied person takes for granted. Like other Labour Members, I feel shame that this House has not seen fit to support the many Bills that were debated in Parliament and which could have created a disability rights commission. We should never have delayed so long.
At the same time, I feel privileged and proud to be a member of the Government who have acted with both speed and thoroughness, and who are seizing this early opportunity in government to create the Disability Rights Commission. In our manifesto, we said that we would support comprehensive and enforceable civil rights for disabled people. By introducing the Bill, we are doing just that. We are creating a body whose prime duty will be to work towards the elimination of discrimination against
disabled people. That body will be independent and well-resourced, and will have tough duties and strong powers. It will be able to take action on behalf of individuals who have been at the sharp end of experiencing discrimination. It will work with employers and suppliers of goods and services to help them develop policies and practices so that disabled people are treated fairly and justly.
However, it will be a body that can insist, through the judicial processes, that those employers and suppliers of goods and services who are resistant to change cease to discriminate against disabled people. It will promote good practice, disseminate effective guidance and information, and prepare statutory codes of practice. It will advise the Government on the workings of disability discrimination legislation and recommend changes. It will be powerful and will be a crucial element in the wide range of levers that we have developed to promote civil rights.
The Government are driven by the principle that economic prosperity and social inclusion are not competing aims, but are inextricably linked objectives. We can never sustain a successful competitive economy if we allow large sections of our community to be excluded by discrimination. Our proposals in the Bill are guided by that underpinning principle. We need the Disability Rights Commission to ensure that civil rights for disabled people are protected by powers of enforcement.
We are not arguing that a commission is enough in itself. As my right hon. Friend the Minister for Employment, Welfare to Work and Equal Opportunities said in his opening remarks, the proposed commission is not the whole journey. Here again, I am proud of how much we have achieved after less than two years in government. We are implementing the remaining provisions in part III of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, because we know that they will bring important advances in terms of disabled people's access to goods and services.
We have reduced the small employer threshold, which has given protection from employment discrimination to a further 70,000 disabled people. I am working hard with colleagues representing disability organisations and with other interested parties--from business, the trade unions, local government and the regions--on the task force to introduce proposals across the whole range of relevant activities to promote further civil rights.
However, unlike the previous Government, the Labour Government are not waiting for legislation before we act. Throughout Government, we are acting now to enhance the opportunities and rights of disabled people. As some of my hon. Friends have pointed out, we have introduced new building regulations for the construction of new dwellings; that will benefit 10 million people. We have successfully negotiated with transport operators so that from January this year all new trains will be accessible, from January next year all new single-decker buses will be accessible and from January 2002 all new double-decker buses will be accessible. Consultations on proposals for taxis are currently under way.
The Lord Chancellor's Department has initiated a pilot study and has appointed some visually impaired magistrates. In the Department for Education and Employment, we have been strongly promoting rights for disabled people in both education and employment.
We have thoroughly reviewed special educational needs and we are investing £60 million for children with SEN. That will bring greater equality of opportunity at school in an inclusive environment, where that is appropriate. We are hugely expanding further education and higher education, with an emphasis on widening participation, improving the accessibility of our education buildings and enhancing access and support. Our benefit reforms, the £195 million made available to a new deal for disabled people and the extra £30 million we have secured to expand the services which support disabled people in work are all vital steps in providing those disabled people who can work with the opportunity to do so.
The Government are taking comprehensive action in pursuit of comprehensive rights and we are achieving creditable and important progress, but we know that there is much left to do. If we are to embed justice and fairness, we need to challenge the many preconceptions, the ignorance and the sheer prejudice that still prevail. That cannot be achieved through legislation alone, nor can we achieve it through Government action alone. We needto work with others in business, in the disabled organisations, in the trade unions and in the community. We need to employ every lever available to transform attitudes and eliminate discrimination.
That is why we are working in partnership with others to launch an extensive campaign that aims to reach people's hearts and their minds. We hope that the Disability Rights Commission will take over that campaign. We want to confront prejudice, so that disabled people are recognised for their abilities--for what they can do and for the contribution that they can make; so that we understand that they have the same hopes and fears, loves and hates, ambitions and talents and qualities and faults as the rest of us; so that we see the person and his or her abilities and enable disabled people to play a full and equal part in our society.
Today's debate represents the fruit of many years of hard work by many people. I would like to pay particular tribute to Alf Morris and Jack Ashley, both of whom are now Members of the House of Lords, to my hon. Friends the Members for North-East Derbyshire and for Kingswood, to my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Chryston and to my predecessor, now Minister for the Arts, my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East (Mr. Howarth). They have all campaigned tirelessly on behalf of disabled people. I also thank the members of the National Disability Council and the disability rights task force for their work and support in developing the Bill's proposals.
The Bill has wide support from disabled people and from business leaders. It is our job to ensure that, if it passes through the House, we bring its provisions promptly into effect. For my part, I want the Commission
to open its doors for business in April 2000. When they were in government, the Conservatives argued that creating a Disability Rights Commission would provoke a backlash by providing "well meaning, but inappropriate advice". I am glad that they are now on the road to Damascus--I only hope that there will be accessible lavatories on that road.
How can the Opposition say that we do not need a commission to enforce civil rights? Tell that to the blind customer who went to a well-known hi-fi shop and wanted to pay for the goods by credit card; he was asked for confirmation of identity and the manager suggested that he produce a driving licence. How can they tell the man with mental health problems who prefers to explain the gap in his employment history by saying that he was in prison rather than admit to an episode of illness that we do not need a commission to enforce his rights? How can they tell the group of learning-disabled people who were thrown out of a pub because the landlord thought their presence would damage his trade that we do not need a commission to enforce their rights? We do, and the Labour Government will enact one.
The Bill is at the heart of our wider agenda to achieve an inclusive and fair society. Disabled people have waited a long time, and they should wait no longer. I commend the Bill to the House.
"We are trying to give disabled people civil rights and opportunities consistent with those of other citizens and to establish a mechanism, through a commission, to deal with discrimination."--[Official Report, 26 February 1993; Vol. 219, c. 1160.]
That may not come immediately to hon. Members' minds because I said it the year after I was elected. The year after that, I was pleased to support the hon. Member for Kingswood in his private Member's Bill. It might be useful for new Members to know that when I voted for it, I was Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Minister of State for Employment. I fully expected to receive my notice to quit next morning. It did not come.
5.58 pm
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