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Mr. David Maclean (Penrith and The Border): Before my hon. Friend concludes his remarks, there is one aspect on which he has not touched and about which I am unclear. He will be aware that in clause 9, which sets up the tribunal, the Secretary of State has been given the
power to make regulations. Some 20 different regulating powers are prescribed there. One of the key facets of the workings of the Bill will be how the tribunals work, the general trend of cases, the excuses that some people make, and whether lawyers are employed. I am not sure whether there is a general instruction under the Council on Tribunals for there to be an annual report from the tribunal itself so that we can see what is happening at tribunals. The new clause does not address that point. Can my hon. Friend reassure me that parliamentarians will be able to get a report on the trends at tribunals and the justifications for their actions?
Mr. Hammond: I should be more careful when I use the word "finally". I do not wish to alarm my right hon. Friend--but I meant "finally" not in the sense that I was about to sit down, but in the sense that I was merely about to turn to paragraph (e), which is the last of the paragraphs. He need therefore have no immediate fear on that ground.
The point that my right hon. Friend raises is interesting. I do not purport to be an expert on the general body of law regarding tribunals, but I noticed that the Minister was nodding his head vigorously during my right hon. Friend's remarks, so he might be able to offer him some reassurance later in the debate.
Ultimately--as I shall put it--paragraph (e) requires the Secretary of State to report also on
That matter will concern all those who are anxious to protect individuals and avoid yet further erosion of their human rights. It will be a matter of great concern to ensure that appeals under this legislation are dealt with in a timely fashion. The starting point--admittedly, not a solution to the problem--will be to have the information available so that we may assess, first, whether there is a problem and, secondly, the extent of that problem.
The question of time limits was of particular concern in Committee. Despite pressure from some Committee members, the Minister was reluctant to accept tighter limits on the Department than those that have subsequently been incorporated in the Bill. The single most important response that I should like to hear from the Minister today is that the time limits in the Bill will not come to be considered as the norm, but will always be considered as a backstop so that we can dispatch the vast majority of cases much more quickly.
It is vital that we review this measure after it has come into effect to confirm that the assurances that we received in Committee, and any that we receive from the Minister today, are valid and that the concerns expressed by hon. Members on both sides of the House are unfounded. That is the principal purpose of new clause 2, but it also serves a secondary purpose. I am conscious of the fact that it might be possible to obtain the information sought in newclause 2 by other means.
Including a requirement to lay this information before Parliament in the Bill also sends a clear signal that we are not complacent about the human rights of people who are placed on the list, and that we will be as vigilant on their behalf as we will be on behalf of the children whom this measure is designed to protect. Throughout the proceedings on the Bill, both sides of the House have recognised that, if this measure is to be durable and robust, it is essential that we get the balance right between the desire to protect children and the need to protect the rights of individuals who are caught up in the administrative system and put on the list created by the Bill.
I hope that the hon. Member for Stourbridge and the Minister will accept this modest proposal to impose a limited element of post-legislative scrutiny of this measure. If the Minister is not minded to accept new clause 2, I hope that he will at least accept the principle that lies behind it, and give the House concrete assurances on the provision, through some other means, of the information that I seek to have available after the Bill has come into effect.
Ms Debra Shipley (Stourbridge):
I thank the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) for his comments, which I echo. The Committee stage of the Bill was my first experience of a Committee, and as the Member in charge I found it a steep learning curve. I was extremely lucky that the Committee was constructive. All hon. Members recognised the importance of the topic--the protection of children--and the importance of balancing that with the rights of the individual. When the Bill came out of Committee it had been strengthened: it was a better Bill than when it went in. That shows Parliament at its best, working on a serious topic. Constructive, useful and effective are the words I would use to describe the Committee, and I thank all members of the Committee for their sincere and long efforts--the Committee went into five sittings.
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge said that the Bill was not perfect. I immediately thought, "No, it isn't perfect because it doesn't stop abuse of children and all the avenues that abusers can use." That saddens me enormously. A huge number of people have written to me sad and sickening letters. The Bill may go only some way towards closing down avenues of abuse, but it is an important "some way".
I am in some difficulty over the new clause, because I am more than sympathetic. I welcome the fact that it reflects the depth of interest there has already been in my Bill, and which I am sure will continue to be shown once the legislation becomes operational. A wide range of organisations will be keen to see how the Bill is working, and it would be right to respond to that interest. However, the wording of the new clause leaves a little to be desired. That is perhaps because it is a probing amendment to establish the fact that there will be a great interest in the Bill, and that the Secretary of State should be expected to respond to it appropriately.
Taking the new clause at face value, I believe that it is rather limited. It envisages only one report from the Secretary of State, which is wholly confined to the operation of the Department of Health's list. If interest in
the Bill extends to an interest in the operation of some of the main provisions, the Secretary of State should provide a wide range of information.
Mr. Hammond:
I do not know what discussions the hon. Lady has had with the Minister on this subject, but, in framing my new clause very tightly and very modestly, I was hoping that it would sneak in under the wire of bureaucratic rejection of reporting whenever possible.
Ms Shipley:
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's comments. As he is aware, I have all along wanted more and more for the Bill while always being aware that, as a Back Bencher, I can have only less and less. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept my comments as supportive of the principle of the new clause.
Such statutory requirements as are in the new clause are rarely desirable or necessary in principle. What may be seen at the outset as the most important features of the Bill to be monitored--even before the ink is dry--may turn out to be much less important than other unforeseen ones or newly felt concerns. If there were a statutory requirement, which it would take a new statute to change, the Government would be committed to churning out data that no one wanted, whereas the data that people did want would not be so readily available.
Mr. Maclean:
The hon. Lady has moved on to another point, but I want to ask her about remarks she made earlier. The Bill covers the Department of Health's list, the Department for Education and Employment's list and the tribunals operating under the Lord Chancellor's direction. I do not want the hon. Lady to make any commitment, but given that the Government believe in joined-up government--to use their own terminology--does she agree with me that, if we were to have a report to Parliament, it should be a more comprehensive overview?
Ms Shipley:
The more information is readily available to Parliament, the public and interested organisations, the better. I would urge the Secretary of State to be open and forthcoming with information, so as to facilitate monitoring and assessment. As for an overarching umbrella, I think that it is appropriate to have both types of information available--joined-up, interdepartmental information and specific information, where appropriate.
I wondered whether I could suggest a way forward that would satisfy the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge. I could undertake to convey to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State my support for the spirit of the thinking behind the new clause. I must have made it clear by now that I support the spirit of the new clause. I invite the hon. Gentleman to accept that active consideration--perhaps Whitehall-wide and over a longer time scale than that envisaged in the new clause--should be given to what information could be collected and published about the operation of the legislation.
"the average length of time elapsing between the commencement of appeal proceedings"
by an individual on the list. That would include both individuals provisionally included on the list, who were appealing to the tribunal for a determination of whether they should be on the list at all, and individuals included on the list other than provisionally as a result of a determination by the Secretary of State, who were appealing against that determination.
10.15 am
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