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11.30 am
I have two final points. The first relates to an important aspect of the initial report sought by new clause 2. We are dealing with statutorily regulated bodies, often in the public sector. We are changing from a non-statutory to a statutory obligation, and making it an offence not to refer persons. As a former civil servant, I am only too well aware that, when the Government are placed under an obligation, they sometimes not only meet it, but go too far. It is important that we ensure by early review of the implementation of the legislation that the guidance that Ministers issue is working in Departments and producing an appropriate, rather than an excessive, number of referrals. Given the sanctions involved and the implications of being placed on the list, the public sector should not treat referral as a matter of routine or a tick box operation. It must be done carefully and with justifications given throughout the process, or the rights of individuals will be abridged.
The second point concerns reports from tribunals. I am no expert on tribunals, but from my knowledge of other tribunals--particularly school admission tribunals--I do not recall any provision under the Tribunal and Inquiries Act 1992 for them routinely to provide reports. I recall, because I think that I read it, a report from the Council on Tribunals, but that impinges not on the merits of the issues brought before tribunals, but on their conduct and the training provided to those who sit on them. It is peculiarly important that this tribunal should involve appropriate training and qualification. Although it is not
mentioned specifically in the report proposed by new clause 2, I hope that in so far as the Minister is responding to the sense as well as the letter of the debate, he will ensure that the review ensures appropriate training, particularly in respect of the lay panel members. I support new clause 2.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. John Hutton):
Several hon. Members have made important and helpful contributions to this useful debate. I welcome with open arms the new converts to transparency and openness among Opposition Members. It may be unhelpful, given the spirit of compromise that has dominated our proceedings, but some of us wonder where they were for the past 20 years.
Mr. Hutton:
Precisely, but without results. None the less, we welcome the sinners' repentance and we welcome them to the cause of openness and transparency.
New clause 2 is about providing information to Parliament about the operation of the list of those considered unsuitable to work with children and the work of the tribunal, both of which are key parts of the Bill that were amended in Committee. I agree with the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) about the way in which the Committee went about its work. The Bill now strikes a better balance between a proper regard for fundamental civil liberties and the need to ensure that we provide maximum protection for children from people who might harm them. In particular, the new opportunities for those who have been provisionally listed to appeal to the tribunal in clause 4 have strengthened the Bill's safeguards without weakening one of its central purposes: allowing the Department of Health to keep an accurate, comprehensive list on a proper statutory basis of people whose behaviour has harmed a child or placed one at risk of harm.
I assure Opposition Members that the Department intends to deal with referrals in a timely and efficient manner. The nine-month limit will not become the norm. That was never our intention. We aim to deal with referrals for inclusion on the list as quickly as possible so that people know where they stand and so that the list can serve the purpose for which it has been properly set up.
Mr. Hammond:
The Minister said that the Government would deal with referrals as quickly as possible. That does not tell us much. Can he assure the House that the Department will set internal targets for the time taken to deal with referrals and test itself against them?
Mr. Hutton:
Yes, we will. We want to ensure that the system is efficient and effectively operated and to avoid undue delay. The purpose of maintaining the list would be compromised if those problems crept in.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Ms Shipley) for her constructive and helpful attitude to new clause 2, the intention and spirit of which I welcome. She spelled out one or two problems with it. I agree that it would be unwise to include it, for the reasons that she gave.
I confirm that we will look carefully at how best we can provide regular information to Parliament about the operation of the new statutory list. However, there is no reason why hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, cannot table parliamentary questions on all the matters covered by new clause 2. I assure the House that we intend to be as open as possible about the new arrangements, given the widespread concern across the House about the importance of ensuring that children are properly protected from harm at the hands of abusers.
Mr. Forth:
The Minister is trying to be helpful, but it is asking us to extend our normal credulity when he says that, instead of a regular report, we should rely on the random tabling of parliamentary questions by assiduous Members. That is a new doctrine. Instead of the Government or their agencies reporting freely and openly to Parliament, we are to wait for Members to table questions. Given the Government's recent record of timeliness and openness in answering them, I do not accept that as a credible approach.
Mr. Hutton:
With great respect to the right hon. Gentleman, he has misunderstood. I said that we were trying both to improve the spread of and access to information about this part of the Government's work, as well as responding fully to any parliamentary questions that hon. Members might wish to table. The two things are not exclusive. I am sure that he has never tabled a random parliamentary question.
Mr. Maclean:
I am grateful for the Minister's attitude to new clause 2. Will he confirm that, when he says "we" intend to be as open as possible and "we" will publish information, he is speaking not only for his ministerial capacity in the Department of Health, but for Ministers in the Department for Education and Employment, the Lord Chancellor's Department and the Home Office?
Mr. Hutton:
Yes. When I say "we", I am referring to the Government as a whole.
The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) raised several questions. He and, I think, the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) mentioned the information published about the work of tribunals. The Council on Tribunals publishes each December an extensive statistical report on the work in the previous year of a variety of different tribunals. It gives details on the number of tribunals in each area, statistics on the number of cases before them and the number handled, with or without a hearing. There is an existing mechanism for publicising information about the work of tribunals. This tribunal would be included in that statistical digest.
Hon. Members, including the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley), asked about the Department's current list, the consultancy index. There are nearly 900 people on it. Under the scheme, we receive between 12 and 15 referrals a month of people who should be included on that list. Each month, we carry out not 7,000, but 14,000 checks. I hope that those figures provide the House with better particulars about the existing arrangements.
We do not underestimate the difficulties or the extent to which abusers of children seek ways to avoid mechanisms for protecting children, but, by common
consent, the Bill is a significant step forward and will provide children with better safeguards. As I said, we shall ensure that the House is kept properly informed about the operation of the legislation and the Government's continuing work to deny abusers access to children.
Mr. Hammond:
The Minister's answer to this question will be important to me in deciding how to proceed with the new clause. Will he assure me that if I or other hon. Members seek to obtain the information listed in new clause 2 through parliamentary questions, that information will be provided and those questions will not receive the standard answer that the information is not collated centrally or is available only at disproportionate cost?
Mr. Hutton:
The whole point about the list is that it is operated by the Department of Health, so it is entirely our responsibility to collect and retain the information. If the hon. Gentleman were to table the appropriate parliamentary question, we would try, as we are required to do, to answer it as fully as we possibly could. I certainly invite the hon. Gentleman to table such a question. I would always be happy to correspond with him about those issues in detail and, if he thinks it appropriate, to place that correspondence in the Library of the House.
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