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Mr. Forth: Perhaps I should have suggested a provision for an electoral or referendum process, which might answer my hon. Friend's point. I accept the thrust of what he is saying, but how often does he think the process will happen? The point about the burden, which he and the hon. Member for Upminster (Mr. Darvill) both made, has to be put in the context of the number of times the process is likely to be repeated. From all that Ihave read, I doubt that it would happen all that often. I see the sense of what my hon. Friend is saying, but we should not over-emphasise the burden that would be imposed.
Mr. Heald: I accept my right hon. Friend's point, but we often regulate with the best intentions, thinking that
the burden will not be significant, only to discover to our horror that a process has been set up that requires a very wide-ranging consultation when it is not really necessary, and we end up imposing burdens that we had not foreseen. I know that my right hon. Friend is one of the strongest advocates for not doing that.
I accept that we should consider the issue of consultation very carefully and not cut out the little guy--the entrepreneur--but it is possible to be too cautious about the abilities of the British Chambers of Commerce, which has established a high reputation and is seeking to improve its regulation. It would be horrified at the idea that it would want to promote a chamber of commerce that was seriously failing. In fact, I believe that it would take active steps, as the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Colman) said, to rectify the situation.
I will be interested to hear what the Secretary of State has to say about the concerns that have been expressed, but the Opposition have welcomed the Bill and supported it throughout. We do not consider the concerns to be so serious that they need to be dealt with by means of the amendment, although we would enjoin the Secretary of State to take careful note of the points that have been made and hold the widest possible consultations when concerns have been expressed by bodies other than the British Chambers of Commerce.
Mr. Darvill:
The Bill is a balanced and good measure and we should support it. I support the general thrust of the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald). It is important to get the right balance and I think that the Bill does that.
The amendment would tip the balance the wrong way, because there would be excessive bureaucracy and the administrative costs would be heavy on the public purse. Some of the points made by the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) about fat cats and consultation need to be addressed--we are doing that now--but the amendment goes too far.
In my experience as a solicitor, the chambers of commerce serve the business community well. They are always looking for new members and encouraging the broader business community to get involved. I believe that the representative bodies should have their input exactly as the Bill sets out. The amendment would make the Bill too restrictive, so I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will withdraw it.
Mr. Lansley:
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for the manner in which he moved the amendment and spoke to his other amendments. His vigilance in scrutinising legislation is acquiring a certain status in the House--
Mr. Forth:
That is one way of putting it.
Mr. Lansley:
If I may presume to offer flattery to my right hon. Friend--not something that he ever seeks--I can tell him that I am grateful for the way in which he spoke to his amendments so as to help us to examine the Bill further. As the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Colman) noted, a very similar Bill was introduced in the previous Session. Even when a Bill clearly pursues objectives which I trust all hon. Members will think desirable, it is
First, I shall explain to the House the impact that the amendments would have on the Bill, because that will help to set in context the reasons why I do not think the amendments would be of advantage, and therefore why I hope that my right hon. Friend will not, on reflection, press them.
Amendments Nos. 1 and 4 both relate to the Secretary of State's obligation to consult before approving the title "chamber of commerce" or related titles. One amendment relates to companies legislation and the other to business names legislation. There are two clauses that relate to those separate processes of approving names. That is why there are two amendments.
In each case the effect of the amendment would be the same--to take out the requirement to consult
I shall tell the House why the Bill is intended to secure consultation through British Chambers of Commerce as a relevant representative body. It may be helpful for those who read the report of our deliberations to be able to see how the Bill is designed, so I must explain that section 29 of the Companies Act 1985 provides that where the Secretary of State is approving a title that is a controlled title for the purposes of the Companies Act, he can specify by order a Government Department or other body as the relevant body for consultation purposes.
There is a parallel feature in section 3 of the Business Names Act 1985. Under existing legislation, therefore, the Secretary of State is in a position to specify that "chamber of commerce" is a controlled title and further by regulation to say that his exercise of his power in relation to such a title should be by way of consultation with a relevant body.
The purpose of the legislation is primarily to entrench the position of British Chambers of Commerce and Scottish Chambers of Commerce so that the Secretary of State is required to consult them as relevant representative bodies. An important factor that has not yet come out in the debate is that the purpose of the Bill is not to prevent the Secretary of State from consulting bodies or persons whom he might regard as persons or bodies whom he should consult, before deciding whether to approve such titles. The purpose is to constrain him to consult British Chambers of Commerce or Scottish Chambers of Commerce as the relevant representative body.
Mr. Forth:
Of course I follow what my hon. Friend is saying, but is it inconceivable that at some time in the future a group of chambers might decide that the representative body was no longer representative and that they needed to set up a rival organisation that claimed to be more representative? When one names organisations in
Mr. Lansley:
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I can declare a past interest in that 10 years ago I was deputy director general of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce. If we had been undertaking such legislation then, we would not have specified the association alone. We would also have specified the National Chamber of Trade, as it then was. There was more than one organisation representing bodies that operated under titles relating to chambers of commerce or chambers of trade.
That thought helpfully brings me to an important point. It is not only desirable but necessary to entrench the position of British Chambers of Commerce because, in the intervening 10 years, considerable changes have occurred in the chambers of commerce movement. For example, the National Chamber of Trade and the Association of British Chambers of Commerce have merged, and there is now no body other than British Chambers of Commerce that can lay claim to representing chambers of commerce.
It would be possible, for example, for the Secretary of State to choose to specify as a relevant representative body the International Chamber of Commerce (UK), but that is not a body with the representative characteristics of British Chambers of Commerce. It would be reasonable for the Secretary of State to consult that organisation in relation to bilateral chambers of commerce, such as the British-Australian chamber of commerce or the British-Belarus chamber of commerce, or whatever, but it would not be right for him to specify that body as a relevant representative body.
Over the past 10 years, although British Chambers of Commerce has effectively brought together a high proportion of chambers of commerce and related organisations with such titles into membership of the association, it does not seek to create an exclusive monopolistic organisation. The intention throughout has been to bring members into chambers of commerce, and chambers of commerce into membership of British Chambers of Commerce, in ways that extend the network and improve the overall standard of chambers of commerce.
We should not lose sight of the fact that one of the purposes of the Bill, and of entrenching the position of British Chambers of Commerce, is further to recognise the simple fact that chambers of commerce seek not to defend the status quo but to guarantee high standards of service to business, which they are doing through the network of 60 approved chambers of commerce throughout the country.
"at least one relevant representative body"
and insert the requirement that the Secretary of State "must"--I emphasise the word "must"--consult
"all bodies and persons who appear to him to have an interest".
Amendment No. 9 would leave out clause 4, which specifies the relevant representative bodies that the Secretary of State should consult, and gives him power to go further and add other relevant representative bodies for that purpose.
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