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Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough): That may be no bad thing.
Mr. Lansley: Patchiness of quality is to be deprecated. It is acceptable for local organisations to decide for themselves which services to offer, but it is less acceptable if when people go to chambers of commerce either in their own area or in order to trade from overseas, or from other parts of the country, they find poor service. That is why, alongside the approval system to create a network of chambers of commerce to give national coverage, every organisation should be able to say in time that it has a chamber of commerce that provides that valuable service in the private sector, and is not dependent on a grant from Government--I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) will applaud that. Through the accreditation system and the procedures of ISO 9000, when a business goes to a chamber of commerce it can be sure of the standard that will be applied.
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It is not the intention of the Bill to provide that only those bodies that are approved by the British Chambers of Commerce can be called a chamber of commerce. Neither is it the intention that only those bodies that meet that quality standard of accreditation should be able to call themselves chambers of commerce. However, it is important that--in parallel with the effort that is being made by the British Chambers of Commerce and its members to raise the standard and extend the coverage of the system--they should have the protection that those who are completely outwith the system and making no effort to comply with the essential characteristics of a chamber of commerce cannot use the title. If such organisations were allowed to use the title, it might lead members of the business community to believe that they were dealing with a chamber of commerce. The essential characteristics of a chamber of commerce are that it is owned by its members; that it does not operate in the commercial interest of a member but in the wider business interest of the area it serves; that it relates specifically to a geographical area described in its title; and that it is genuinely representative of the businesses in that area.
The system is intended to be self-regulatory, because the chambers of commerce have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps in past years to ensure that they are bodies in which the business community and Government can have confidence. However, the process should not be monopolistic. In France and Italy, the continental system of chambers of commerce is exclusive and monopolistic. The chambers of commerce have public law status. They are creatures of statute and exercise quasi-public sector functions by virtue of statutory controls. That does not permit the competitive aspects of our system, or the ability of businesses to join a chamber of commerce and cause it to change.
British Chambers of Commerce does not want the continental system. It wants protection of title, rather than public law status--and there is a big difference between the two. The protection of title is the British way of doing things, because it will not create a monopoly or dependency on the Government. However, it will recognise that the Government have a role in preventing abuse.
I do not suggest that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst should withdraw his amendments because they would be difficult to administer, but they would be burdensome. The Secretary of State would have to consult all those bodies that appear to him to have an interest. The list that my right hon. Friend gave consisted of all those bodies that the British Chambers of Commerce would customarily consult. There is no difficulty with individual businesses expressing an objection to or approval of an application for title, because they are likely to be members of the local chamber of commerce or know about it.
In one case, the East London chamber of commerce existed, but the East of London chamber of commerce sought the title and the Secretary of State approved it. It is a matter for debate whether, if the Bill had been in force, the outcome might have been different, but that is not my point. In those circumstances, British Chambers of Commerce made effective representations, but the then Secretary of State felt that he could not refuse title. Under the amendments, the Secretary of State would have had to consult directly every business in the geographical area of east of London, which would have been a major enterprise.
Mr. Forth:
I acknowledge the force of my hon. Friend's argument, but I hope that he can put it in context. How often would consultation have to be carried out? If it were once a day or once a week, my hon. Friend's argument would have more force. However, if it were relatively infrequent, the argument against the requirement to consult would have that much less force.
Mr. Lansley:
The applications for changes in title fall into three categories. The first is applications for titles for new organisations, which are relatively infrequent. British Chambers of Commerce records suggest that they occur about half a dozen times a year. In each case, major consultation is necessary. Secondly, chambers of commerce often seek to change their titles. For example, on 20 or so occasions, chambers of commerce and industry have sought to combine with training and enterprise councils and to change their names. A further 20 or 30 of those could come forward in a short time.
The third set of applications is one that we have not mentioned in the debate, because we think of chambers of commerce as bodies that represent specific geographical areas within the United Kingdom. However, many bodies using the title "chamber of commerce" operate in the trading sphere, as bilateral chambers of commerce between the United Kingdom and other countries. Sometimes there is a rush of such applications. For example, after the dismemberment of the former Soviet Union, many bodies sought to become the bilateral chambers of commerce between Britain and the former Soviet republics. That would mean dozens of applications a year reaching the desk of the Secretary of State, who would face significant difficulty if he were required to consult all those bodies that appeared to have an interest in the trade between the two countries, which would include many of the exporters in this country.
I hope that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst recognises the excessive burdens that would be imposed by his amendments. Although the
purpose of the amendments does not transgress against the principles that he expressed in moving them, I hope that he will withdraw them.
The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Stephen Byers):
Not for the first time, the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) has done the House a service. He has allowed us not only to debate the narrow implications of amendments Nos. 1, 4 and 9, but to address some far bigger issues surrounding the danger of over-regulation and the tendency to which all Governments are prey to endorse the status quo and the big players already in the field which have good links with Government and can lobby effectively.
There is always an inclination to listen to the views expressed by those organisations, and we can as a consequence deny opportunity to young and dynamic organisations that are just starting out and do not have the access that established organisations enjoy. I hope to reassure the right hon. Gentleman on how the Government will operate the provisions in the Bill. I hope that he will then feel able to withdraw his amendment.
There can be no doubt that it would be a terrible mistake to introduce legislation that would prop up old and tired organisations, ensuring that they maintained a privileged position that denied opportunities to other organisations. I do not feel that the Bill will do that.The consultation provisions clearly place a specific requirement on the Secretary of State to consult British Chambers of Commerce and the Scottish Chambers of Commerce. There is nothing to stop the Secretary of State using discretionary powers to discuss matters with, or take views from, other organisations.
There is certainly nothing to stop dynamic local companies or groups of employers from making representations to the Secretary of State about any proposal. They would need to be proactive, because the Secretary of State would not seek out their views as there would be no legal requirement for consultation. However, the Secretary of State would listen to any representations that those organisations might make.
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