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Mr. Heald: Is my hon. Friend saying that, if the amendment were passed, the words

"factors which shall be taken into account"

would be very restrictive, because no other factor could be taken into account except those factors, and that that would restrict the discretion of the Secretary of State unreasonably?

Mr. Lansley: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, who, having a legal background, has come to the point

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which is often the crux of the not pedantic issue of whether one says "may" or "shall". That is indeed an objection to the amendment. However, in the spirit in which my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst has moved the amendment, I hope that the House will bear with me while I explain what I hope that the guidance will cover, and why it would not necessarily in all circumstances be appropriate for each aspect of that guidance to be taken into account when considering every application--although my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) is absolutely right to say that we do not want the Secretary of State to be constrained not to take other factors into account if they are not expressly provided for in his guidance.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst has mentioned some of the things that the British Chambers of Commerce has said in its briefing to Members of Parliament, but it may help if I list some of the things that I foresee as being among the characteristics of a chamber of commerce. I shall divide them into three categories.

The first category relates to the constitution of a chamber of commerce. Although some chambers of commerce enjoy a royal charter, they are the lesser number. A chamber of commerce should be constituted as a body corporate, but not a company limited by shares. In almost all circumstances, chambers of commerce are incorporated as companies limited by guarantee. The straightforward purpose of that is to ensure that they cannot be used as a profit-distributing vehicle--that any moneys generated by the commercial activities of a chamber of commerce should continue to be re-invested for the improvement of service to the whole membership.

Secondly, a chamber should not be a subsidiary or division of any other body except another chamber. The independence of chambers of commerce is an important characteristic and should be reinforced, in my view, by the stipulation that a chamber of commerce should be independent and not under the direct control of Government or a local authority. It would be contrary to what I would regard as the essential characteristics of a chamber of commerce if, for example, local authority X were to set up chamber of commerce X. That body would not be representative of the business community and independent of Government.

Finally, the constitutional arrangements of a chamber of commerce should provide for it to be controlled by the whole of its membership--not by a faction or a cabal, still less by an individual. There should be an expectation that a very high proportion of the members of a chamber of commerce should be engaged in manufacture, commerce, business, trade, shipping, distribution, agriculture, fishing or professional practice. The hon. Member for Upminster reminds us that those who are in the professions often play a significant part. Although, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough said, chambers of commerce were often established as manufacturing, commerce and trade oriented bodies, they now represent the whole business community, including the professions.

However, there is a British chamber of shipping. Therefore it is possible to contemplate circumstances where bodies that enjoy a title related to "chamber of commerce" do not necessarily comply with that criterion, because they are not representative of a geographical area,

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but represent a particular trade relationship--perhaps between the United Kingdom and another country--or a particular form of trade or business. That has a bearing on the question whether that factor should be taken into account in all cases.

11.30 am

The guidance should cover the issue of whether a chamber of commerce whose name is a geographical descriptor is genuinely representative of all businesses in that area. That point was alluded to in previous discussions, but I think it should be made explicit now. When a name refers to an area, the Secretary of State must also consider whether the chamber of commerce seeks to promote business and trade between that area and others. That is an important point, and we must draw a distinction between chambers of commerce that represent a specific geographical area and those that seek to promote trade between areas. The guidance should take account of certain factors when assessing a title application by a chamber of commerce that represents a specific geographical area and different factors when considering an application by a chamber of commerce that seeks to represent trade between areas. Not every factor should be taken into account in every application.

I think that it is important that the essential characteristics of chambers of commerce should include some central purposes. First, a chamber of commerce should exist to serve and promote the interests of the whole business community in any place or area to which its name is applied. The body should foster the interests not simply of its members but of the whole business community in the area that it represents. Secondly, a chamber of commerce should provide a service to the local business community--it would not necessarily be exclusive to its members--in respect of information, advice and assistance. Thirdly, a chamber should undertake, or encourage its members to undertake, joint activities and arrangements for mutual support and promotion of the interests of the business community. That is one of the central original purposes of chambers of commerce: they must promote the relationship between the local business community and its legislatures--

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. This is a fairly general point. Will the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) relate his comments to "may" and "shall"?

Mr. Lansley: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is my final point about guidance.

It is clear that it will not always be relevant to take into account whether a chamber of commerce has the purpose of representing a business community to a legislature or to other bodies. For example, if the body seeks to promote trade between two areas, it might have no representational role in relation to local authorities or central Government. It might operate in the international sphere, even though it is incorporated in this country. Some chambers of commerce and related titles are incorporated in this country but are not representative of a particular national geographical area. Therefore, it would not be relevant to assess them according to whether their activities include joint promotion or representation to Government in their area.

I hope that I have covered reasonably fully what I think the guidance should include. In the process, I hope that I have illustrated that, because of the scope of the guidance

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and the diverse bodies that use the title "chamber of commerce", we should not assume that every one of the factors set out in the guidance will apply to each of the bodies that seeks to use the "chamber of commerce" title. Therefore, the legislation should give the Secretary of State discretion to decide not only the issuing and timing of guidance, but which factors to apply to a particular application in each instance.

I apologise if I have trespassed upon the patience of the House. I hope that I have assisted hon. Members in understanding why this small but important point is phrased in the way it appears in the Bill. I hope that my right hon. Friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Mr. Leigh: I support amendment No. 2, but, for the reasons given by my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley), I oppose amendment No. 3. I am not sure why, in framing the Bill, we are talking about the Secretary of State "perhaps" publishing guidance. Of course he will publish guidance, so I am not sure what is wrong with amendment No. 2 proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), which says that the Secretary of State "shall" publish guidance.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We are not discussing amendment No. 2.

Mr. Leigh: I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I may have got the numbers wrong, but I hope that my point will stand as to whether we should talk in terms of "may" or "shall". My right hon. Friend said that the Secretary of State shall publish guidance, which is a very important point.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire listed the factors that will influence the Secretary of State in determining whether he should allow the creation of a new body. My hon. Friend referred to some very unremarkable facts. Of course the Secretary of State would not want to allow the establishment of a new body if it were not constituted as a body corporate or run constitutionally and democratically. Those points are well made. However, the "may" or "shall" point is important in how it relates to the geographical descriptor. I think that is the key to the whole argument, and it relates to the fears that we expressed when considering the previous group of amendments.

I am worried that, when the Secretary of State considers these matters, he will have regard to not only whether the proposed body is run by reputable people, is run democratically and seeks to represent people in the area but whether a similar body already exists in that area. How much weight will he give to that latter point? That is an important point that relates to my experience in the last Parliament. As a lawyer, I was retained by the newspaper distribution industry. It is a very restrictive business, being a vertical monopoly. Until recently, one was not allowed to open a news agency when one already existed in that area. You can see my point, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I want to try to frame the legislation--I hope that the Secretary of State will reassure me about this in his winding-up speech--so that no one will be denied the ability to create a new chamber of commerce simply because one already exists in that area.

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There may be perfectly valid reasons--although it may not happen very often--why the existing chamber of commerce is not doing its job adequately. It may have been taken over by a clique or, as often occurs with democratic bodies, it may have remained in the same hands for many years and atrophied. I want to ensure that the Secretary of State is able to look at the issue in the round. The guidance should be quite clear. Someone may wish to establish a chamber of commerce that is perfectly well constituted and genuinely representative but which covers an area served by a similar body. For the sake of argument, let us suppose that someone wishes to establish the new Blankshire chamber of commerce, but there is already a Blankshire chamber of commerce in that area. I do not understand how the procedures will work. Will the Secretary of State say, "I'm sorry, but there is already the Blankshire chamber of commerce, so your geographical descriptor is not accurate."? I am sure that that is not what my hon. Friend intends to do. Indeed, I am sure that he wants an open and democratic system that permits new entrants. We are talking about something that may happen only rarely but there may be good reasons why it might be necessary in some instances. I hope that when the Secretary of State replies, he will be able to give us the reassurance that we seek.

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