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Mr. Byers: I shall try to reassure right hon. and hon. Members, either in relation to the two amendments, which are narrowly drawn, or on Third Reading, when some wider issues may need to be addressed.
Amendments Nos. 3 and 6 relate specifically to the factors that may be taken into account. The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) is trying to remove "may" and replace it with "shall". Many Members will have debated for hours, if not days, the merits or otherwise of "may" as opposed to "shall". Indeed, I remember--it was probably four or five years ago--when the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst was a Minister in the Department of Education and taking a Bill through Committee. I was then a Labour Back-Bench Member. We debated "may" and "shall" for many hours in the context of the various powers that the Secretary of State should have.
Right hon. and hon. Members will know that there are significant reasons why "may" is to be preferred. If "shall" is inserted in a Bill, it is often seen to be prescriptive. There may be other issues that should be taken into account, or it would be appropriate to take into account, in particular circumstances. If "shall" is used, there is a limit on the issues that may be reflected upon by the Secretary of State. By having "may", the Secretary of State has the discretion to consider other factors if it is appropriate to do so in the particular circumstances of an individual case.
There have been references to the publication of guidance. You were right to point out, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the two amendments do not touch on that issue. The amendments do not relate to whether the Bill should state "may publish" or "shall publish". The amendments that do relate to that issue have not been selected for debate. That being so, we must restrict ourselves to the factors that may or, if the amendments are carried, shall be taken into account.
The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst used shorthand when he said, "Is it discretionary or mandatory?" That is probably quite an accurate way of
putting the question. There will be difficulties if the amendments are carried. It would be restrictive and prescriptive for the Secretary of State. The issues to be taken into account would be set in stone and would be required to be taken into account. More worryingly, the Secretary of State would not be able to take into account some wider issues that it might be appropriate to consider in individual cases but not in all cases.
For these reasons, I ask the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst to withdraw the amendments. He has raised an interesting debate about "may" and "shall" and I am sure that it is one to which we shall return on other occasions, perhaps in different capacities, in the months and years ahead. However, I hope that he will accept today that inserting "shall" would create some real difficulties. I hope also that he might feel able to withdraw the amendments.
Mr. Forth:
I am grateful again to the Secretary of State for so carefully replying to the debate. I accept both the spirit and substance of what he has said. I am sufficiently reassured, and sufficiently anxious to move on to Third Reading, to beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Order for Third Reading read.
Mr. Lansley:
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I am grateful for the opportunity to move to Third Reading. I am grateful to right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House who on Second Reading gave the House a short but useful opportunity to understand the purposes of the Bill. Consideration of the Bill in Committee was an interesting occasion when we were able to raise a number of issues, none of which was controversial. It is always interesting when a Bill is being considered in Committee and there are no amendments. Sometimes, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) said in a previous debate, that is not encouraging. In this instance, I hope that my right hon. Friend and other hon. Members will be comforted by the thought that there were no amendments in Committee because the Bill follows a pattern that was agreed after substantial amendment to another measure in the previous Session.
Mr. Forth:
That may be so, but an alternative explanation is that members of Committees are so carefully picked that sometimes they neither wish to engage in nor are capable of objective consideration or criticism of a Bill, with the result that it sails through Committee without proper scrutiny.
Mr. Lansley:
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I would not subscribe to that view in this instance. When my right hon. Friend examines the Bill at a later stage, I hope that he will find that, although he has properly raised various issues, it is competent for its purpose and in that sense is a quality product. It is our objective to achieve that.
I thank Ministers at the Department of Trade and Industry, as well as the Financial Secretary, who was a DTI Minister in the previous Session. The hon. Lady was
supportive of the Bill at that time. The Secretary of State and the Minister for Small Firms, Trade and Industryhave been helpful during this Session, as have Liberal Democrat Members and my right hon. and hon. Friends. I hope that we have arrived at a Bill that will substantially improve the environment for chambers of commerce. It is certainly legislation that they seek, and for good reasons.
It is important to stress that the Bill is not sought on the basis that existing legislation has been applied in anything other than a good fashion. I think that it has been applied as well as could possibly have been expected. However, there are deficiencies in its present structure. That is why we introduce legislation. If existing legislation is good enough but has been misapplied, that is a different matter and does not justify the introduction of new legislation. However, in this instance there are deficiencies in current legislation. It is the purpose of the Bill to correct potential problems and abuses.
For example, the role of British Chambers of Commerce as a consultee on applications has not been entrenched in statute. It should be so entrenched for a series of reasons to which I referred in the first of our two debates on Report. Secondly--this touches on the issue that we dealt with in the second of our debates on Report--there is no benchmark in legislation against which the Secretary of State can judge what is a chamber of commerce. The hon. Member for Upminster (Mr. Darvill) talked about whether the Secretary of State should issue guidance. I think that he should. In the absence of it, the Secretary of State is trying, with difficulty, to answer the question, "Is this plainly not a chamber of commerce?" It is important that there should be a benchmark, and it is important also that legislation should provide the power to issue guidance. Under existing legislation, the Secretary of State could not issue such guidance nor use it as he will be able to use it once the Bill is enacted.
With your indulgence, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was able to explain the factors that I believe should be included in guidance. There is no need for me to rehearse those factors on Third Reading. I hope that, when the time comes, the Secretary of State and British Chambers of Commerce will be able to agree something along the lines of those factors to form the basis for guidance.
As has been said in previous debates, there is a risk of abuse. Fortunately, it is not a risk that has materialised to any great extent in this country--although it has happened in other countries, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) said. There is a problem about the scope to challenge the geographical descriptors that are applied to chambers of commerce. There is a difficulty every time such an issue arises. My hon. Friend raised the hypothetical example of a chamber of commerce that seeks, as it were, to be the new Blankshire chamber of commerce. The Secretary of State may well not be able to entertain such an application. It will have to be justified in relation to the factors to which I referred.
I envisage circumstances in which a title is allowed although it includes the geographical descriptor of an area that is covered by another chamber of commerce. However, the question should be whether the chamber of commerce seeking to use that title meets the essential characteristics of a chamber of commerce as stated in guidance. If it does, all will be well and good.
Mr. Leigh:
My hon. Friend is giving us very important reassurance. Is he saying that the Secretary of State will
Mr. Lansley:
That is indeed my view--each application should be considered on its merits. The purpose of providing guidance is to enable us much more clearly to understand how the merits are judged.
It is possible to envisage circumstances in which two chambers of commerce are, by reference to their geographic descriptors, working in the same area. Clearly, it would be undesirable for them to have titles that are so similar that people trying to do business with them might be confused about which body is which.
Neither the chambers of commerce movement nor I, in promoting the Bill, are trying to create an approved and exclusive network of chambers of commerce in which only those organisations approved by British Chambers of Commerce can represent a specific geographical area.
Hon. Members have dealt with political boundaries--with which area is within the compass of which local authority or parliamentary constituency. I know that none of us would advise British chambers of commerce to try to agree exclusive boundaries for their responsibilities and areas, which will overlap. Although more than one chamber may cover the same area, that will not be a problem in itself.
The London Members present will appreciate that there is no difficulty with the existence of both a London chamber of commerce and industry and, for example--as the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Colman) said--a Merton chamber of commerce. They seek to serve different purposes for their area, to provide different but complementary services, and to do so to a high standard; and that is perfectly acceptable. We are not trying to establish a geographically exclusive operation.
We are trying, I hope, to ensure that a geographical descriptor is not applied to a chamber of commerce that is not justified by its ability to represent the business community in that area. That is a central point of the Bill's structure.
On Second Reading, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst addressed the vexed issue of reversibility--the extent to which it is possible for the Secretary of State to conclude that a name should be removed from a chamber of commerce. For the benefit of the House, I should explain how I foresee that situation being dealt with. In some circumstances, a specific chamber of commerce may no longer be operating as a chamber of commerce. In other circumstances, an organisation, although it holds the title of chamber of commerce, may not be operating as a chamber of commerce at all, but in a manner that is potentially misleading and harmful to those in business.
British Chambers of Commerce, for example, owns five chamber of commerce titles. It has acquired those titles to frustrate possible efforts by others to acquire them to abuse the business community wishing to deal with a chamber of commerce. One could say that those registered titles are redundant, as they are not being used for chamber of commerce purposes. However, in those circumstances, I do not think it would be right for the Secretary of State to remove the titles, as they have been registered for a perfectly legitimate purpose.
The test that should be applied--as it is in section 32 of the Companies Act 1985--is whether the Secretary of State believes that the name in which a company is registered gives
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"so misleading an indication of the nature of its activities as to be likely to cause harm to the public".
In those circumstances, he may direct it to change its name.
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