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Mr. Forth: My hon. Friend has rightly pointed out that the issue has been on my mind for some time, and I am grateful to him for the point that he has just made. However, surely he is not saying that this Bill is justified by the fact that we can already deal with the matter under current law, principally the Companies Acts.
Mr. Lansley: The issue is whether the Bill--which contains provisions additional to current legislation--should include provisions giving the Secretary of State a power to cause a chamber of commerce title to be changed, over and above the generic power already provided in companies legislation and based on the test of harm. I believe that it would be wrong to provide the Secretary of State with a more intrusive power in dealing with bodies calling themselves chamber of commerce, or related titles, than he already has in dealing with any company that has been given a title and continues to use it.
There is already a generic power; the question is whether there should be a specific one, on chambers of commerce. I should be happy to rest on the Secretary of State's generic power provided by companies legislation, and see no need to go beyond it.
I apologise for that digression, but, as the Bill's promoter, I am conscious of the fact that we should not complete our proceedings without specifically addressing the issues raised in earlier debates.
I thank all those who have further contributed to our debates on Report and Third Reading, and especially officials at the Department of Trade and Industry, who have been enormously helpful to me in reconciling and trying to mesh the objectives that I sought to achieve in the Bill--to support the chamber of commerce movement--with the structure of current companies legislation. As hon. Members will appreciate by my responses on some of the issues, the Bill's structure is very much designed to work within the structure of companies legislation, rather than to operate outside it or perhaps come into conflict with it.
Mr. David Heath:
It is a pleasure to be able to contribute to the progress of the Bill, even at this late stage. I commend the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) on the content of the Bill and the admirably well-informed way in which he has taken it through its stages in the House. I am also pleased to see that the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry has been present throughout this morning's proceedings.
I do not want to delay this worthwhile Bill. It was worthwhile in its earlier manifestation, when the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Trend) introduced it. The proceedings before today have been characterised by their brevity. The Official Report shows that 34 minutes were spent on Second Reading and 27 minutes in Committee, which, by anyone's standards, is fast progress for a Bill. We have rightly been slightly more leisurely today, because it is important to tease out the purposes of a Bill and its consequences on enactment.
I am interested in the debate not least because my local chamber of commerce was keen on the Bill and gave its support. However, there is one blemish in the record of the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire--one blot on his escutcheon--to which I must draw attention because it illustrates a point that we should consider before giving final approval to the Bill.
Given my interest in the Bill, imagine my surprise on Monday 1 March--St. David's day--when I saw, at column 704 of the report of the Second Reading, a remark that was interpreted in my area as a slighting reference, intentional or not, to the Wessex chamber of commerce. This is an important point about geographical descriptors and the operation of the legislation. The hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire has also referred to the issue in radio interviews, so it is clearly important to him.
The Wessex chamber of commerce serves Frome in my constituency, and several other towns. It may be helpful to describe the genesis of the Wessex chamber, because it illustrates a difficulty that I should like the hon. Gentleman, or perhaps the Secretary of State, to address. The Frome chamber of commerce used to deal exclusively with the affairs of the town. It did so extremely well and celebrated its 50th anniversary recently, when my namesake the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath) was the guest of honour. I hope that it will work closely with the newly elected Liberal Democrat town council in Frome over the next four years.
However, the chamber realised that there is a limit to the scope of the services that can be provided to the trade members in a small market town and that there is an
advantage in associating with other areas. It considered the best way forward. It thought about joining the prestigious and active Bristol chamber of commerce, but felt that that was probably not right for a town some distance from Bristol. Instead, it looked towards the West Wiltshire association, where it saw towns of a similar size with similar activities with which it fitted well. Eventually, a joint chamber of commerce was formed serving Bradford-on-Avon, Melksham, Trowbridge, Warminster, Westbury, Frome, Chippenham, Devizes and Shepton Mallet. That immediately created a problem of nomenclature. The chamber of commerce could not be called West Wiltshire any more because it extended outside west Wiltshire. It is difficult to find a geographical descriptor that covers four district council areas, two county council areas, four health authority areas--if that is relevant--and five parliamentary constituencies. How can that area be described adequately?
I experienced a similar problem when I was chairman of Avon and Somerset police authority. When the Government decided to abolish Avon county council, we had a problem knowing what to call the police authority. As chairman of the authority, I said that we should do nothing, partly because I was not prepared to spend money on new cap badges, but also because it was difficult to find a geographical descriptor for the area. The "Somerset, Bristol and Parts of South Gloucestershire constabulary" would have been a bit of a mouthful and would not have been likely to commend itself to the Home Office or the local population, so we stuck with Avon and Somerset.
The same applies to Wessex. The hon. Gentleman has introduced a provision which might have the capacity to mislead, as Wessex is a rather amorphous geographical term. I do not want to get into a discussion about the heptarchy and the realm of the west Saxons, but Wessex is often used to describe an area which we know is in the west country but of whose extent we are not sure. Wessex is also one ward in the West Somerset district council area, so the term does have a specific use. However, in this case it was decided on as a convenient term.
Would the Bill create difficulties if a chamber of commerce were set up but it was difficult to find a precise geographical definition of the area that it covered? Would it have any effect on existing chambers of commerce that had been set up in similar circumstances? No one would suggest that Wessex chamber of commerce is doing anything other than an excellent job for the businesses that it represents. There is certainly no intention to deceive or any sense of self-aggrandisement.
Mr. Lansley:
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for providing me with an opportunity to set the record straight. If my references to the application by the former West Wiltshire chamber of commerce to call itself the Wessex chamber of commerce were regarded as a criticism, I happily withdraw what I said. I am quite clear from all the evidence received that the Wessex chamber of commerce is one of standing and has every reason to use that title. I know from past experience not to question the definition of Wessex. However, it illustrates the point that we have to apply ourselves carefully to the issue. I understand that British Chambers of Commerce was consulted and raised no objection because the Swindon chamber of commerce had no objection. However, the Dorset chamber of commerce would have had an
Mr. Heath:
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for an extremely helpful intervention which I will transmit to members of the Wessex chamber of commerce. I know that they will be pleased to hear what he said, which was helpful in explaining how the Bill will operate.
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