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12.8 pm
Mr. Heald: I pay tribute to the way in which myhon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) has presented the Bill, building up a cross-party consensus in the House. I know how hard that can be from my experience of a private Member's Bill on insurance company reserves when I had a great deal of difficulty with the hon. Member for Bolsover(Mr. Skinner). In the end we prevailed, but it is not always easy. Anyone who reaches this stage with a private Member's Bill deserves huge plaudits. I also thank the Secretary of State for his constructive approach to the Bill. All hon. Members appreciate it if the boss, the man at the top of the Department, can be in the House when such a Bill is being debated.
The Bill will not affect the status title of any existing chamber of commerce, but it will deal with a problem that has become increasingly evident. Although the existing procedure has been well administered, there has been concern that added protection is needed, so that the title "chamber of commerce" and related titles can be applied to persons and bodies that are genuinely representative of the business community and the area described in the title.
It will be helpful if the Secretary of State can publish guidance on the criteria to be used in determining whether a body should be permitted to use the title. My hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire was right to say that there has not been a benchmark, and that there should be.
The Bill will reduce the scope for abuse by public relations companies and others who may use the title when they have no representative function. It will prevent also the use of grandiose geographical descriptions; although I exempt Wessex, in light of the comments of the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath).
It will be far better to have the matter on a solid, statutory footing, while giving the British Chambers of Commerce and the Scottish Chambers of Commerce the opportunity to be involved in strong self-regulation.
The Opposition welcome the Bill and pay tribute to the chambers of commerce, which have made great strides in recent years in accreditation, quality-assured services, sensible mergers, more comprehensive geographical coverage and, in some areas, the close work between chambers and training and enterprise councils.
Mr. Byers:
I am delighted to be here to support the Bill. I congratulate the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) on the way in which he has dealt with the issue, and on the way in which he has ensured that there has been a cross-party coalition in support of the Bill. As the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) said, it is difficult to get agreement in this House on almost any measure; even on one that appears to be non-contentious. The hon. Gentleman has done extremely well to achieve such a level of support for the Bill.
The Government have a positive and constructive working relationship with the British Chambers of Commerce and the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, and we are working together to drive forward the competitiveness agenda. It is vital that chambers of commerce continue to be business-led, and that their membership is controlled.
The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) referred to his experience as a DTI Minister and to the view of the then Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), that chambers of commerce were almost an arm of the Government, as they were proactive and part of what the Government wanted. Our view is that there should be an arms' length relationship, and that chambers of commerce should be responsible for issues of concern to their members. The priority for the chambers must be what their members want. On occasion, there may be conflict with the Government; so be it. That is one of the strengths of our democracy.
We are working positively with the chambers of commerce and we wish to continue the partnership. We have studied the Bill--which we know the chambers are keen to have on the statute book--and we believe that it is appropriate to legislate in this way. We do so to rule out abuse by organisations which, for their own reasons--perhaps to mislead or deceive--use the description "chamber of commerce" or the variety of other descriptions that can flow from that.
We must not rule out the possibility of other groups coming forward in a proactive way to represent the interests of the business community. We want to rule out abuse but not to deny other bodies the opportunity to be described as chambers of commerce if they so wish. It will be for the Secretary of State, considering the guidance that will have been published, to determine whether such an application should be agreed.
I listened carefully to what the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) said, using the example of the Wessex chamber of commerce. His points are well
made, and when the Department considers these matters, those are exactly the sort of issues that we will want to take into account.
I was pleased that officials from the Department were able to assist the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire with the Bill. The Bill will apply to Great Britain and it will be for the new Northern Ireland Executive to make proposals for consideration by the Northern Ireland Assembly on any changes in legislation that might be needed for Northern Ireland.
Mr. Forth:
I think that I welcome the Bill but I am not yet wholly convinced, despite the eloquence of my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley), its promoter, whom I, too, congratulate on piloting it so skilfully to this stage.
I join all those who have welcomed the Secretary of State. It is a great pleasure to see a Secretary of State taking the trouble to be here on a Friday for a Bill that is of importance to his Department. We all greatly appreciate his presence.
I am somewhat puzzled. The briefing from the British Chambers of Commerce says:
That leaves me slightly at a loss, but if the promoter of the Bill, who has worked so closely with the BCC, and the Secretary of State reassure me that the BCC has got what it wants, I suppose that must be the case. I hope that the BCC will not be disappointed when the legislation is implemented.
I was grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire for taking a bit of time to cover the issue of what he and I have come to know as reversibility. I was grateful, too, to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) for the points that he made on that issue.
Those points were not covered in our rather brief proceedings in Committee and on Second Reading. The value of Report has been demonstrated yet again. It enables those who were not privileged to serve in Committee to have some input and it allows points that may have arisen on Second Reading and may or may not have been dealt with in Committee to be reconsidered by the House as a whole.
This has been a useful example of the value of the Report stage, even when the Bill has, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire told us, emerged
unscathed from Committee. As for reversibility, I remain uneasy, but obviously I will have to accept what has been said today.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough, with his usual eloquence and force, has said that he hopes, as I do, that the Bill will not provide a mechanism to reinforce the status quo and protect those who have title to use the term "chamber of commerce" regardless of their performance and value.
We also hope that there will be sufficient flexibility in the mechanism to allow for the removal, where justified, of such a title, and for newcomers to come onto the scene if they are providing either something new or--this is a horrible phrase but I shall use it--added value.
My suspicion all along has been that we are reinforcing the established order, ensuring that there is not much of a threat to it, and then walking away rather satisfied. My hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire has said repeatedly that that is not the case, and has told us that the Companies Act 1985 makes proper provision for the removal of the title, where necessary, by the Secretary of State.
"Companies House seeks the opinion of BCC on new applications but there is no legal requirement to do so . . . There is no definition in British law of a Chamber of Commerce."
Then, intriguingly, it says:
"This Bill would solve these problems by providing an acceptable and meaningful definition of the term 'Chamber of Commerce'."
It does no such thing: I can find no definition of the term in the Bill. If that is what the British Chambers of Commerce was looking for, I do not think that the Bill provides it.
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