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12.23 pm
Mr. Darvill: I support the Bill, and I can reassure the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) that the definition of the term "chamber of commerce" is clearly covered in clause 1, which says that it is contained in regulations pursuant to section 29(1)(a) of the Companies Act 1985 and section 3(1)(a) of the Business Names Act 1985.
Mr. Forth: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's help, and his legal expertise, but my point was that if the definition is already in other legislation, the need for it cannot be used as a justification for this legislation.
Mr. Darvill: The point that I was making was that the Secretary of State's ability to secure the term "chamber of commerce" is specified in regulations pursuant to those sections. The point of the Bill is to bridge the gap in existing legislation, and the need for it has been clearly demonstrated not only on Second Reading and in Committee but today on Report. I agree with the right hon.
Gentleman about the importance of Third Reading, which has enabled the House to focus on two of the major points, on which debate and reassurance were clearly needed.
Mr. Leigh: When historians write the history of Friday, 7 May 1999, I fear that they will not dwell at length on the passage of the Bill. That will be unfair. However, they will dwell on the fact that a new Parliament, for better or worse, has been created in Scotland. The Report stage of the Bill showed that this old Parliament can scrutinise legislation effectively and improve it.
We have had an excellent debate this morning. As usual, my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) responded to arguments with skill and sensitivity. It is welcome that, on a Friday morning, we have been joined by an existing member of the Cabinet and by my hon. Friend who--according to today's newspapers--may shortly join the shadow Cabinet. He well deserves that honour for the skill that he brings to our debates. I hope that I have not ruined his chances by saying that, because I was trying to pat him on the back for what will be a good Act of Parliament.
The Secretary of State gave the House various assurances today. He said that he does not see the Bill as an interventionist measure and that he intends to deal with the issues with a light regulatory touch. Reference has been made to Nicholas Ridley and, listening to the Secretary of State, one is left with the impression that he would have enjoyed serving under the late Nicholas Ridley, because their views are similar. The Secretary of State stressed that he sees the chambers of commerce as a business-led organisation with which he does not wish to interfere any more than is necessary.
The Secretary of State also wishes to ensure that there is no abuse of the system. As I understand it, that is the purpose of the Bill, because it will provide a mechanism for the Secretary of State to issue guidance on how chambers of commerce may properly be set out and allow the British Chambers of Commerce to be consulted when a proposal is submitted. That appears to be an unremarkable hope and I am sure that the Bill will achieve it.
I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire is not unhappy with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) and myself have tried to achieve this morning. I hope that he agrees that our arguments have been sensible, because we do not wish to adopt the rigid structure that appertains in many continental countries. I do not criticise those countries for the way in which their chambers of commerce operate, because they are effective. However, they are an arm of government, albeit a quasi-independent arm of government. We have a different tradition, and I know that my hon. Friend does not wish to adopt the continental approach. He is convinced that the Bill will not make that more likely.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst and I have made the point that if someone wishes to set up a new chamber of commerce, the Secretary of State will consult widely, if necessary, and will not just take the view of the existing establishment in the British Chambers of Commerce. That point must be emphasised. I hope that the Secretary of State has also accepted the important point about the geographical descriptor. It is important that a thousand flowers should bloom in the chambers of commerce movement and small market towns, such as Gainsborough, should have their own chamber of commerce, albeit under the umbrella of county or even regional chambers of commerce. My right hon. Friend shares that view and has made it clear that if the existing structure in any county, town or city is not working satisfactorily, a new organisation can come forward and should not be turned down because there is a pre-existing organisation.
Mr. Lansley:
With the leave of the House, I thank right hon. and hon. Members on both sides for their contributions. I must say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) that, as the British Chambers of Commerce have said, the Bill should give statutory backing to the issuance by order of the Secretary of State of guidance that will set benchmarks for what is defined as a chamber of commerce. That would not be possible without legislation.
A balance needs to be struck, raising the point of whether that should be done in the Bill or through secondary legislation. The latter is both more flexible and more manageable as chambers of commerce may change their remits, particularly when training and enterprise councils and chambers of commerce merge. They have done so in the past and may do so again in future.
I am grateful to all hon. Members who have spoken, and I hope that the House will feel it right to speed the Bill on its way. Finally, I thank the Secretary of State for the time and attention that he has given to the Bill. The chambers of commerce will appreciate that, and I hope that they will also appreciate the spirit and detail in which we have scrutinised the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
As amended, in the Standing Committee, considered.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr. David Maclean (Penrith and The Border):
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The clause imposes a new requirement on local authorities. I am largely satisfied with the Bill as it appears before the House. It is much better than the Bill that came before the House last year. What is more, we have the chance to give it a proper Report stage and Third Reading. We are able to explore issues that have been raised with me, although I do not intend to try to force changes in the Bill that would not be acceptable to the coalition of organisations--or to the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth), or my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison)--that has come together to try to make the Bill workable.
Having said that, we should consider some issues to ask whether the Bill could be improved, whether it contains something unnecessary or whether its provisions may contain any retrograde step. I hope that those who read Hansard once we have completed our deliberations will see that we have considered all the points that may worry them. I hope that they will conclude that the House accepted or rejected new clause 1 and the other amendments that I have tabled after full consideration and for sensible reasons. I hope that they will see that we have produced the best possible legislation to deal with a vexed problem.
The new clause would place an obligation on local authorities to publish a report and present it the Secretary of State. That obligation would not be too onerous on local authorities. Local authorities regularly have to present reports. They are bound by various charters and have to report on many aspects of how they conduct their affairs to the Secretary of State. In any case, most local authorities will want to state in their annual report to their electorate how well they have been operating various aspects of their business. Usually, they report on how well they are doing on environmental health issues, for example, giving the number of inspections carried out and so forth.
One obligation on local authorities is the licensing regime, which is set out in clause 1. The improvement under the Bill will be the involvement of veterinary practitioners in the reports and in coming to conclusions, which will add a professional expertise that was absent.
Since we have new legislation that is imposing new obligations, it would be worth while for local authorities to present a report stating how many licences have been renewed for breeding establishments in their area. We need to know whether the legislation is biting. We have all read about the awful examples of puppy farms in the country. I think that most of the original examples were in Wales. I make no slight on the new Welsh Assembly--indeed, it could not be a slight as the elections were only held last night for that body--or the Welsh people and I am not criticising breeders in Wales in particular. However, advocates of the legislation and those who say that something must be done always seem to quote examples of puppy farms in Wales.
People have different concepts of what constitutes a puppy farm. Some believe them to be huge places with hundreds of breeding bitches, while others rightly point out that the abuse can be as wicked, with the breeding of inappropriate dogs with genetic deformities, and the conditions in which animals are kept as horrific in a small operation. Whatever one's concept of the breeding establishment--the Bill gives a definition--it is important that local authorities report on how things are going.
'Each local authority shall publish and present to the Secretary of State on an annual basis a written report stating--
(a) the number of licences granted or renewed to breeding establishments in the local authority area;
(b) the number of applications refused;
(c) the number of convictions under sections 4 and 9 of the Act;
(d) the number of disqualifications under section 5 of the Act;
(e) the number of appeals against convictions and disqualifications; and
(f) any other relevant matter as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State.'.--[Mr. Maclean.]
12.32 pm
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