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6.45 pm
The Minister of State, Department of Social Security (Mr. Stephen Timms): As always, the House will have enjoyed the energetic and theatrical performance from the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies). If his contribution were to be measured by gusto rather than content, no doubt it would have more impact than it actually does. I have had the good fortune to listen to the evolution of the hon. Gentleman's line in rhetoric over these past months. However, I am bound to say that the more over the top his contributions become, the more detached they are from the reality of what the industry and all informed commentators are saying, and the more desperate they sound as well.
Indeed, one is bound to ask why, after requisitioning an Opposition day for a pensions debate as recently as February, Conservative Members have found it necessary to have another go today. The answer, of course, is because they failed so abysmally to make any impact the last time. I do not blame them for wanting to have another go, but I am afraid that they have made no more impact today than they did last time.
It would be a good idea for the Conservative party to try to make sure that, in an Opposition day debate such as this, at least a minimal number of its Back Benchers are present to support the policy of those on the Front Bench. Today, we have seen the extraordinary spectacle of the hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) being
dragooned from her place on the Front Bench so that she can speak in the debate from the Back Bench. Also, I had never seen a Whip be dragooned from the Front Bench to the Back Bench in a desperate attempt to try to make up the numbers, but that is what happened to the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Collins), who has now returned to the Front Bench. Hon. Members on the Conservative Front Bench would be well advised to make sure that there is at least a little Back-Bench support before they embark on a debate such as this.
Mrs. May:
I am grateful to the Minister for finally giving way, as he referred to me specifically. I was not dragooned from the Front Bench to take part in the debate. I have a particular interest in this matter, and I have referred before to the comments that I have made in seminars on women and pensions. In reality, those on the Government Front Bench did not want to listen to my remarks because of the impact that their proposals will have on more than 50 per cent. of the population.
Mr. Timms:
The problem facing Opposition Front Benchers is that, to make an impact, they need some substance to their attack.
Mr. Timms:
The hon. Gentleman says that he does not need such substance, but empty rhetoric is not enough, no matter how over the top it might be.
The Opposition motion talks about "complacency and incompetence"--those words sum up the previous Government's record pretty well. Under the previous Government, there was the problem of the mis-selling of personal pensions: up to 2.5 million people--people such as nurses and teachers--were sold the wrong pension. That is incompetence indeed and, as in so many matters, we are clearing up the mess.
Under the previous Government, there were millions of people for whom no suitable funded pension was available on the market. We are introducing stakeholder pensions to meet a need that was completely ignored by the previous Government. That is an example of their complacency.
Then there was the problem with the inherited state earnings-related pension scheme. The Conservative Government introduced changes in the law in 1986 and then did not tell anyone. They told the Committee scrutinising the relevant Bill that they would launch a major publicity campaign about the changes, yet not only did they forget to do that, they did not even tell the people who worked for them in the Department of Social Security. Again, we are left to sort out the legacy of the previous Government's incompetence. What a shambles it was.
Conservative Members accuse this Government of complacency but, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said at the start of the debate, on the basis of their policies, we are heading for a situation in which, by 2050, one person in three will retire straight on to income support. That is not acceptable. We are introducing the state second pension precisely to reduce the amount of means-testing that there would otherwise be in the system. That means-testing is a result of the previous Government's policies.
We want a contributory system so that people who work and contribute all their lives will retire on an income above the level of the means-tested threshold. Our plans will deliver that; the previous Government's policies did not.
Mr. Quentin Davies:
If the Minister really values the contributory principle over means-testing--I do not believe that for a moment, but that is what he has just told us--why does he uprate the minimum income guarantee at a higher level than the contributory state second pension?
Mr. Timms:
I shall come to the minimum income guarantee in a moment. Let me first remind the hon. Gentleman that the state second pension is wholly contributory.
I referred to the Opposition's policies, but that may have been rather generous--we have in fact heard remarkably little about their policies this evening. We know what their policies were before the election, and the damage that they were doing; but we do not know what their policies are now, and they have not given us the slightest hint. Do they still believe in basic pension plus?
I commend the forthrightness of the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) who said that he supported privatising the state pension, but is that the position of his Front-Bench colleagues? People would like to know. Do the Opposition have a policy? They have given no clues about it tonight. Even if we do not know what they favour, or what their policies are, they have given us a pretty clear idea of what they are against.
The hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies) mentioned the minimum income guarantee a moment ago, and the Opposition are clearly against that. They say, in the motion, that it will lead to too much means-testing. In fact, our policy for the minimum income guarantee and the state second pension will reduce the amount of means-testing in comparison with where their policies were taking us, but we shall let that pass.
The Opposition say that our policy on the minimum income guarantee will increase means-testing. What they do not say, but what they mean--if one listens carefully, one can pick this out--is that the minimum income guarantee is too generous at £75 per week for a single pensioner and £116 for a pensioner couple, to be uprated in line with earnings next April. That is what the Opposition object to. They think that we are being too generous to pensioners on income support--they think that the 1.5 million pensioners on income support should receive less than we are proposing.
During the Committee stage of the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill, a number of Opposition Members apologised for social security measures introduced by the previous Government, informing us that they never really believed in them. The Conservative party leadership issued the entire population of Scotland with an apology. The deputy leader of the Conservative party has been attempting to shake off his party's hard-faced, privatising image, and to convince us--with the support of the party leader--that the Conservative party does care after all.
The social security team has no truck with all that wishy-washy nonsense from the party leader and his deputy. They are not for turning. They stand for the old ways. They are faithful to the true path. They yearn for the glory days of yore, for the poll tax, for mass
unemployment that was the price worth paying, for top rate VAT on fuel and for charges for pensioners' eye tests--those were the days.
We heard the shadow Secretary of State argue that the minimum income guarantee for pensioners is too generous. Uprating in line with earnings for 1.5 million of the least-well-off people in the country is too soft hearted for him. That may be his policy; it may even be his party's policy--but do not tell the leadership. However, it is not our policy, because our aim is that even the least-well-off pensioners should be able to share in our country's rising prosperity and the benefits of this Government's economic success.
We have heard several interesting speeches today. The hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) expressed what appeared to be some reservations about uprating the minimum income guarantee in line with earnings. Of course, the Liberal Democrat spokesman on pensions has repeatedly supported uprating the minimum income guarantee with earnings, so I am slightly unclear what point the hon. Gentleman was making. He was on more solid ground in advocating consensus on pensions.
Mr. Rendel:
I am delighted to give the Minister a point of explanation. The minimum income guarantee being uprated in line with earnings works perfectly well if there is also an age addition, but it does not work without it.
Mr. Timms:
Indeed, but the hon. Gentleman's party's pensions spokesman has supported our minimum income guarantee proposals. I think that the hon. Gentleman may be endorsing that, and I agree with what his spokesman has said.
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