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Devolution
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord): We now come to the next motion, which concerns the implications for the Westminster Parliament of Scottish and Welsh devolution. Madam Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister.
7.15 pm
Dr. Liam Fox (Woodspring): I beg to move,
- That this House believes that the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales need to work not only in the interests of the people of Scotland and Wales but for all the people of the United Kingdom and calls upon the Government to address the imbalances and tensions introduced by the establishment of the devolved bodies; urges the Government to abandon plans for electoral reform at Westminster in the light of experience in Scotland and Wales; and calls upon all unionist parties to resist resurgent nationalism in every part of the UK.
It is worth pointing out that, five days after polling, there is still no government in either Scotland or Wales. Tonight, as we sit in the House of Commons, in Edinburgh, behind closed doors in smoke-filled rooms--well-protected from the prying eyes of electorate--the unseemly scramble for power has well and truly begun. The Liberal Democrats, pushed into fourth place both in Scotland and in Wales, are engaged in the greatest car boot sale of principles since their last car boot sale of principles over closed electoral lists.
The job of the Opposition is to ask the questions about devolution that have never been properly addressed by the Government. During the referendum campaigns, and throughout the passage of the Scotland Act 1998 and the Government of Wales Act 1998, Conservatives were criticised for pointing out flaws in the legislation. Despite our best efforts, many of those flaws remain and, unless they are dealt with, they will be a source of imbalance and friction within our new constitutional arrangements.
The simple fact is that the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly need to work not only for the people of Scotland and of Wales, but for all the people of the United Kingdom. If we allow those bodies to fail, the United Kingdom will be finished. Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly will work for the maintenance of the Union.
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde):
I thank the hon. Gentleman for showing his usual courtesy in giving way to me. I am not defending the Liberals--I would not do that. However, I point out to the hon. Gentleman that those countries with long experience of electoral systems that are different from our own--I refer particularly to the Irish Republic and Germany--generally take some weeks over the negotiations for their Administrations. It would be foolish for those negotiations to be rushed.
Dr. Fox:
The fact that other countries have to endure longer periods of instability than we do is hardly a
Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed):
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
During the passage of the Scotland and Government of Wales Acts, we said that failing to deal with those legislative problems would create dangerous tensions and anomalies. We were right. We said that devolution would result in a resurgence of nationalism in both Scotland and Wales. We were right. We said that allowing Scottish Members of Parliament to make decisions on English matters at Westminster, when English Members of Parliament had no reciprocal powers to make decisions on Scottish matters would create new tensions. We were right. We said that devolution could lead to the break up of the Union. I hope that we were wrong.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield):
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way at this critical point in his speech. Is he aware that the Procedure Committee, which I have the privilege to chair, is carrying out an in-depth inquiry into the procedural consequences of devolution? Has he read the Committee's first two interim reports? Will he accept from me that all members of the Committee will follow closely the deliberations and speeches in this debate, and that we shall bear them in mind before we produce our report in 10 days' time?
Dr. Fox:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing that to my attention, as he has in the many Tea Room tutorials he has given me on the important work done by his Committee. We shall have to consider closely any procedural changes in this House: not only will we have to rebalance the interests of Welsh and Scottish Members here but we have to remember that this is a Union Parliament and that we all have a legitimate interest in what happens in all parts of the United Kingdom.
Mr. Beith:
The hon. Gentleman might be a little more gracious. If the Liberal Democrats had not negotiated hard for their principles, his party would have not a single seat in the Scottish Parliament and only one in the Welsh Assembly. It is only because we stood firm for proportional representation that the Conservatives have any representatives on those bodies.
Dr. Fox:
Just as they stood firm for the open list that they had cherished for so long. The Liberal Democrats stand firm for nothing except their own self-interest, and that is becoming increasingly apparent as the hours go by.
As in so many other areas of policy, the Government's plans on devolution are half-baked and ill thought out and, as usual, they have begun a process without thinking through how that process will end. That their plans are half-baked, there can be no doubt, for it was the Labour-dominated Scottish Affairs Committee that said:
Mr. David Marshall (Glasgow, Shettleston):
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Select Committee--which is all-party, comprising Labour, Liberal Democrat, Scottish National party and Tory Members--unanimously welcomed the establishment of the Scottish Parliament and wished it every success in future, in contrast with his churlish remarks this evening?
Dr. Fox:
There is no difficulty in the hon. Gentleman's remarks being entirely compatible with mine--they are not mutually exclusive. The report was an all-party report and all the parties damned the Government's proposals; nevertheless, they all welcomed the Scottish Parliament, wished it well and hoped that it would succeed.
The Select Committee came late in the day to issues that have been raised in the House over an extremely long period. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) is not present, for this is surely one of his nights, given that what he has predicted for such a long time has now come to fruition and the West Lothian question remains unaddressed. Scottish Members of Parliament will find themselves without a say on matters such as education and health within their own constituencies. Incidentally, the potential for turf war is immense, with voters being able to choose between two constituency representatives and several top-up representatives; in addition, voters are unlikely to have read the schedules to the Scotland Act or to understand which powers are reserved and which devolved. However, what is more important is that those Members who find themselves semi-redundant in their own constituencies will still have a say on issues in England that are denied to them in their own Scottish constituencies.
That is no longer a hypothetical question; it is the new reality of Labour's new politics and it requires new answers, so I am delighted that the Secretary of State in waiting--the Minister for Education, Scottish Office--is here tonight to give those answers. How is the West Lothian question to be addressed?
Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough):
It is likely that there will be further anger arising from the fact that Scottish Members of Parliament will be able to come down here and decide England's education and health issues while English Members of Parliament have no control over such issues in Scotland. That is illustrated by the row over tuition fees. The English already subsidise Scottish taxpayers, but what will happen if English parents on modest or middling incomes have to pay full tuition fees while tuition is free in Scotland? That would be outrageous.
"we hope that the Government will not be overtaken by events and that when the pace of reform slackens, it will be found that all of the separately constructed pieces of the jigsaw puzzle will fit together".
11 May 1999 : Column 176
The same Labour-dominated Select Committee said:
"if there is an overall grouping showing how all the pieces will fit together, none of our witnesses were aware of it".
Seldom can such a damning condemnation of the intellectual basis of policy have been found in the pages of a report by a Labour-dominated Committee.
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