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Dr. Fox: The situation is exactly as my hon. Friend suggests. It is clear from the Prime Minister's reply that the House will not be able to scrutinise such decisions. We await with anticipation the announcement of the rather short job description of the Secretary of State for Scotland, and we look to that office to enable this place to scrutinise what goes on in Scotland.

I have been asked why the Conservatives asked for this debate now that devolution has happened and the process is over. It is not over: this is the beginning of a process that will continue for some time. It will take many months, if not years, for us to appreciate fully theimpact of the Government's flawed legislation. Their constitutional proposals are piecemeal, are a recipe for conflict and are ultimately unstable. If the Government genuinely want to hold the United Kingdom together, they must deal with the glaring flaws in the plans that they have already introduced. If they simply pretend that those flaws do not exist, the nationalists--those who want to separate the United Kingdom--will be the beneficiaries. This Government would then be guilty of setting countryman against countryman, and the Prime Minister would be remembered as the man who sold the Union.

7.37 pm

The Minister for Education, Scottish Office (Mrs. Helen Liddell): I beg to move, To leave out from "House" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:

"welcomes the establishment of the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales, following the elections on 6th May, and the prospect of working co-operatively with these bodies and in particular the opportunity this presents to make government more democratic, accountable and inclusive within the context of a stronger Union."

The Tory party may have lost its nerve in the past few years, but it has never lost its cheek. The party that opposed devolution root and branch comes unblushing to the House tonight with a carping, petty and point-scoring speech by the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox). He normally comes to this place with a leek in one hand and a Tam o'Shanter in the other. I notice that he sports the Union flag on his lapel tonight; yet behind him sits the hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) who wrote in today's edition of The Herald in Glasgow about the need for an English Parliament. The right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) described such calls as "English nationalism", which is every bit as dangerous to the union as Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalism.

The hon. Member for Woodspring comes to the House tonight purporting to speak for those people whom his party rejected and who have rejected his party. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg) made a very valid point. She pointed out that the 18 Members who were eligible to sit in the Scottish Parliament would not be in that position if it were not for the PR system. The hon. Gentleman has not offered one word of thanks for the fact that, if it were not for this Government and the new proportional representation system--which was adopted for the elections to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly--there would be no lifeline to the moribund Tory party in

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Scotland and in Wales. We have tried to give the Conservatives a lesson in democracy, but they have learned nothing and they know nothing.

Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East): While the hon. Lady is giving lessons in democracy, can she explain to Conservative Members what is democratic about sharing power with the party that came not second or third, but fourth in the elections in Scotland and Wales?

Mrs. Liddell: The hon. Gentleman is showing some pique at the fact that his party is not included. If he is so opposed to proportional representation, he could urge his colleagues in the Scottish Parliament not to take up their seats, but they will take them up because the Parliament will give some of them in the dying stages of their careers an opportunity to hold high office. We have given the Conservatives a lesson in democracy, but they have learned nothing.

Mr. Michael Connarty (Falkirk, East): Is my right hon. Friend amazed not only by the arrogance of the hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis), but by his lack of humility? The Conservatives are five points behind where they were in 1997, when they lost all their parliamentary seats. They appear to have learned no lessons.

Mrs. Liddell: Before the Scottish general election, we saw a penitent Tory party in Scotland with the attitude, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." First, the Conservatives were against devolution; then they were for it; and now it seems, from what the hon. Member for Woodspring has said this evening, that they are against it again. Throughout its history, the Tory party has been unable to rise to the level of great events. Last week's events were great. They mean that the governance of Britain will never be the same again--not worse, but better. Yet another of the pledges that we made to the people of Britain at the election has been honoured. Keeping promises may still be a fairly novel concept for the Conservative party, but for us it is the point of being in government.

The hon. Member for Woodspring claims that there is no Government in Scotland. He made a list of errors in his speech. He seems incapable of grasping the fact that devolution takes place on 1 July, when the powers are vested in the Scottish Parliament. Five days into a Parliament that will last for four years, it is beginning to pick up the reins of power that it will take fully on 1 July. When the devolved powers pass to the new Parliament in Scotland and the Assembly in Wales, a new, more modern Britain will be born. It will be a new democracy where the priorities are the people's priorities--truly a democracy for the many, not the few. The Tories lack the vision to see that devolution means better democracy for all the United Kingdom, including England.

Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest): As the right hon. Lady is so keen on her party keeping promises, will she guarantee that Labour will keep its promise to charge tuition fees, or will it listen to its Liberal Democrat partners?

Mrs. Liddell: The hon. Lady seems to have forgotten the fact that the Government whom she supported set up

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the Dearing committee. As usual, she is posturing on the issues. In Scotland, we have a new democracy which will be built on consensus. Last week, on the eve of the Scottish and Welsh elections, the House gave a Third Reading to the Greater London Authority Bill, which paves the way for an elected mayor and assembly here in London, so that those in the south will also be able to enjoy the benefits of devolution just as we enjoy them in other parts of the United Kingdom.

Mrs. Teresa Gorman (Billericay): If the right hon. Lady's argument is that it is democratic for the Scottish people to have a referendum and choice in their government, why is it not also part of her party's democratic strategy to let the people in England have a referendum on whether they would like their own Parliament?

Mrs. Liddell: I should be interested to know whether it was the view of the Conservative Front Benchers that there should be an English Parliament. That would be revealing.

Last week, the House voted on the Greater London Authority Bill, which paves the way for an elected authority here in London. Throughout England, regional development agencies are up and running. At the general election, we made it clear that we were committed to directly elected regional government in England where there was a demand for it. We have said that, in time, we shall introduce legislation to allow the people, region by region, to decide in a referendum whether they want directly elected regional government. I stress the importance of local consent, because we know that some areas of England are less enthusiastic about devolution than others. Devolution is not about one-size-fits-all government. Already, some local authorities in England and their regional partners are setting up voluntary chambers.

Mr. John MacGregor (South Norfolk): Is the right hon. Lady suggesting that the regional development agencies and assemblies in England--if they came about in certain regions--would have the same powers as the Scottish Parliament? Is she suggesting that they would be in any way equivalent?

Mrs. Liddell: There is no separate criminal law in the regions of England, but there is in Scotland. We shall build on the democratic will of the people in the regions of England to ensure greater accountability.

Much has been made of the role of the House in the new situation and of the alleged threat to it because of the changes that we have made. It is regrettable, but not surprising, that Conservative Members cannot see an opportunity to improve the operation of the House when they are confronted with one. They are so blinded by prejudice that they cannot see that the new governance of Scotland, Wales, Ireland and London will allow an opportunity to improve the business of the House. The Modernisation Committee will shortly be considering a proposal from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to revive and adapt the Standing Committee on Regional Affairs. That would enable the House to debate the affairs of the English regions, along the lines of the Scottish and Welsh Grand Committees.

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