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Mrs. Liddell: I am intrigued by that question, which leads me to ask whether we are to assume that the view
of the official Opposition is that there should be a referendum for an English Parliament. That is a significant admission by the Opposition that they favour an English Parliament. Does the Leader of the Opposition accept that position? I think that we should be told. [Interruption.]
Mr. Jimmy Hood (Clydesdale): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I cannot hear this important debate because of the Opposition's bantering.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: That matter can safely be left to the Chair.
Mrs. Liddell: I return to my point about referendums. We pledged in our general election manifesto--we have kept yet another of the pledges that we made to the people of Britain--that, if parts of England want a devolved assembly, we will put in place the necessary legislation to allow a referendum to take place. I am amazed that Conservative Members are confused by that point, given that London was one of the first areas to be dealt with, and the House was debating those matters as recently as last week.
I do not deny that the new arrangements will take some getting used to, especially for those English Tory Members who table questions to the Secretary of State about matters for which he will no longer be responsible after 1 July. However, I am sure that they will find another interest to keep them amused.
Let me make it clear that there is a legitimate role for Scottish members in relation to Government decisions relating to English spending proposals--and, indeed, vice versa.
Mrs. Liddell:
The Barnett formula means thatpublic expenditure decisions in England have direct consequences for Scotland and Wales, and vice versa. We have no plans to change those arrangements.
Mr. Grieve:
Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Mrs. Gorman:
Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Mrs. Liddell:
No; I want to make some progress.
Let me tell the House about the mailbag that I receive, as a constituency Member. I am sure that all my colleagues, as constituency Members, receive the same mailbags. The bulk of the casework received by Scottish Members of Parliament concerns pensions, benefits, the Child Support Agency, the new deal and immigration--and Scotland is not an insular community. Only yesterday, the general assembly of the Church of Scotland turned its attention to the problems of third-world debt, an issue that is raised with me during nearly every visit that I make to Scottish schools.
Let me also pay tribute this week to the people of Glasgow, Renfrew and East Lothian, who have opened their hearts and their homes to refugees from Kosovo. Many Scottish troops have served in the Balkans, both in flying missions and in helping refugees.
Mrs. Liddell:
The hon. Lady shrieks, "English, too." Let me say to her--[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) must not shout from a sedentary position, or keep seeking to intervene, when it has been made clear to her that she will not be allowed to intervene.
Mrs. Liddell:
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
As I said earlier, the English are not well served by hysterical rantings from Opposition Members. When the people of Scotland have experienced terrible tragedies such as those in Lockerbie and Dunblane, we have drawn great strength and comfort from the embrace of others in lands both far and near. That will not end with devolution. We are part of a partnership: we are stronger together, and we are weaker apart.
This will be an adaptable Parliament. When it is not debating United Kingdom matters, it is bound to address the concerns of representatives of English constituencies. Both the hon. Member for Woodspring and the right hon. Member for Devizes have themselves made it clear how difficult it would be to determine issues that are exclusively English, because so many English issues have an impact on other parts of the United Kingdom. Primary legislation for Wales remains the responsibility of this House. Most legislation has wider UK implications--and, as Opposition Members are fond of pointing out, there are European Union connections as well.
Let me say to those who advocate a purely English parliament, as does the hon. Member for Billericay--
Mr. Grieve:
Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Mrs. Liddell:
No. I have made it clear to the hon. Gentleman that I wish to make some progress.
The fact that I say to the hon. Member for Billericay that this Government do not see a case for an English Parliament--I increasingly wonder whether that is now the stance of her party's Front Benchers--does not mean that they are not keen to find ways of dealing more effectively with issues affecting the English regions.
Mr. Grieve:
Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Mrs. Liddell:
The hon. Gentleman seems to be having difficulty in understanding what "No" means.
I remind hon. Members that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is actively pursuing the matter in the Modernisation Committee. There may be a need for some procedural change once we benefit from the experience of devolution in practice, but there is no case for making such changes until we see devolution in operation.
The changes that were voted for by the people last week, and will be implemented within a very few weeks, are indeed momentous. Tonight, we have heard the same kind of sniping that accompanied the birth of these proposals. We have heard the bogus constitutional arguments, and we have witnessed the frenzied inability to comprehend the Government's arguments. But that will soon be a thing of the past. The proposals will come to be accepted by the House, and in an astonishingly short time--perhaps in a few years--the relevance and importance of devolution will hardly, if ever, be questioned.
Mr. Robert Maclennan (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross):
It is a matter of some regret--but not, perhaps, of surprise--that the speech of the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) demonstrated neither great historical understanding nor any comprehension of the present satisfaction in Scotland with what has been done, and the conduct of the elections that have taken place in both Scotland and Wales in the past week. There has been great satisfaction about the fact that electors in both countries have grappled with unfamiliar electoral systems, and have put in place bodies that will start their lives with great good will.
In Scotland--in contrast with what happens in this House--all the political parties have made declarations of intent to make their Parliament work. Although it is recognised that there are matters still to be decided in regard to ways and means of doing business, there is widespread satisfaction about the fact that there, at least, the Scottish debate is concluded for the time being. Elected representatives can now get on with delivering what the public look to them to deliver.
Dr. Fox:
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Maclennan:
No. I have only just begun my speech, and I do not intend to jump up and down like a jack-in-the-box in response to interventions from Conservative Members who seem to think that the proper way in which to conduct the debate is through a series of interventions disrupting the flow of argument.
Although it is recognised that there are matters still to be decided, there is satisfaction about the outcome. The focus of the political discussion therefore moves from the structures to the new directions of policy that are expected from the new bodies, and it is high time that it did so.As we in Westminster come to terms with those developments, we should remind ourselves that although--in conceptual terms--the new bodies are our creation, they will have a life of their own. Although we defined their powers, they will do things in their own way. It is right that they should, for their members owe their election to the people, and are every bit as legitimate as we are here.
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