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9.1 pm
Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South): I have been disappointed by the debate, and particularly by Opposition speeches. The decision to debate devolution was taken by the Conservatives but, at a time of momentous events in Scotland, their debate has been sterile as they have raked over old coals.
Devolution in Scotland and Wales has serious implications for the rest of the United Kingdom. However, we have heard no positive questions, answers or practical propositions from the Opposition on how the two Parliaments might work together. Nor did we hear anything about how we could build on the success of the Scottish Parliament. Nor was there even a word about the lessons that we might learn from the way in which the Scottish Parliament does its business.
What we did hear from the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) was the same speech that he used during the referendum debate--on Second Reading of the Scotland Bill, at various stages during the Committee on that Bill, on Report and on Third Reading. I am surprised that when he reached into his drawer for his speech, no moths flew out--although I suppose that it has been in and out of the drawer so often that the moths have had no time to settle. Surely the debate has moved on. Devolution has happened, but the speeches we heard tonight have been disappointing.
My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock(Mr. Mackinlay) looked into the future, and I agree with much of what he said about the constitutional make-up of the UK. I do not agree that there must necessarily be symmetry in our constitutional arrangements; Spain has operated happily with an asymmetrical system. However, issues about the better governance of England require to be addressed, and they are matters on which the English people must decide.
Some implications must be addressed in the short term. We must address the relationship between the two Parliaments. Little in the Scotland Act 1998 refers to that relationship but, if the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Westminster Parliament are to work together, relationships must be developed. It is important that we consider that.
I serve on the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, the role of which is being examined by the Procedure Committee. I should like to see its role enhanced and developed. It will certainly continue to have a role in scrutinising reserved matters that will impact on Scotland. I should like to see the Select Committee become much more a Back-Bench liaison committee. There is no reason why a Select Committee of this House cannot meet with members of a Select Committee of the Scottish Parliament,
perhaps to consider issues that have implications for both Scottish and United Kingdom legislation. Perhaps one way of developing the relationship and ensuring that the two Parliaments work together is for the Westminster Scottish Affairs Committee and whatever Committee is set up by the Scottish Parliament--perhaps a United Kingdom Affairs Committee--to have joint meetings and investigations. We should develop such issues. They will change and they are not set in stone.
There may be lessons in the short and longer term that this House can learn from the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament will do business differently. I hope that debates will not see the barracking that the Minister got from the Opposition tonight--to the extent that often it was difficult to hear what was going on. I hope that the Scottish Parliament will do things differently. It will be more consensual. There may be other things that it can do better than this Parliament. There is talk of its having pre-legislative committees, so that, by the time legislation reaches the Floor of the House, it will have been improved on the basis of evidence taken in a non-partisan, open, consensual way. Perhaps there are lessons for this place in that. Discussion of such ideas would have been a positive contribution to the debate, but we did not get much of that from Conservative Members.
We must also examine the role of the Scottish Grand Committee and Scottish questions. Earlier, someone said that a Committee for the English regions would not be a substitute for a proper Parliament. Yet I remember the previous Secretary of State for Scotland, Michael Forsyth, saying that the Scottish Grand Committee would be a substitute for a Scottish Parliament. Of course, the Scottish people had none of it. I contend that the Scottish Grand Committee has lost its role. I do not know whether there is a need for it any more, provided that the Scottish Affairs Committee survives. There is a balancing act to be performed and, if one Committee is to survive, I prefer that it be the Select Committee.
The role of Scottish questions will inevitably change and they should perhaps be shorter. No one on the Government Benches has any problem with that, but there will also be a need for a Secretary of State for Scotland because Scotland will still be part of the Union. This is not separation; it is devolution.
The hon. Member for Woodspring said that Scottish Members of this House were semi-redundant. The horny old West Lothian question came up again. The hon. Gentleman asked how we could possibly have Scottish Members of Parliament debating and voting on purely English matters. I have been in this place two years and in that time there has been no debate on Scottish education, no debate on Scottish health and no debate on Scottish land reform in which I could have taken part because there has not been time for such debates. That is why we wanted devolution. As a Scottish Member, I have not debated those matters during the time that I have been a Member of the House. It is not suddenly wrong for Members representing Scottish constituencies to be involved in English matters; that is the business of the House. This is still the UK Parliament and, as long as it continues to deal with English matters, all its Members may perfectly legitimately debate them.
Mr. Evans:
During the hon. Lady's two years as a Member of Parliament, has she ever asked for an Adjournment debate on Scottish education?
Miss Begg:
On one occasion during Scottish questions, an important issue was raised in relation to Scottish education and I wanted to be called to speak. An Adjournment debate is a Back-Bench matter; I want something more important--a debate involving the whole House. The hon. Gentleman has not been involved in such debates because they have not taken place on the Floor of the House as part of Government or Opposition business. There has been no time. There has been time for plenty of other matters, but not for those Scottish issues.
As Members of Parliament representing Scottish constituencies, we hold a UK remit. There is no contradiction in that; there is no issue with which we cannot be involved. I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock, who said that he believed that a Scottish Member of Parliament could not be the Secretary of State for Education and Employment, for Health or for any other departmental responsibility without a UK-wide remit--although the Department for Education and Employment does have a UK remit and does not deal only with UK legislation. Under the remit of the UK Parliament, if an individual is good enough to serve, it is irrelevant where that person originates from or where his or her constituency is located. The Leader of the Opposition used to be Secretary of State for Wales, but he did not represent a Welsh constituency. Why should that be different from what will happen post-devolution?
Mr. David Marshall:
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is rather hypocritical for the Opposition to complain about Scots Members of Parliament voting on English matters when, for 18 years, from 1979 until 1987, we in Scotland had to suffer the unwanted, detested policies imposed on us by the UK majority of the Conservative Government when hardly any Conservative Members represented Scottish constituencies? As my right hon. Friend the Minister for Education, Scottish Office, pointed out, the Conservatives used the Scots as guinea pigs for the introduction of the poll tax. They also caused us to resist fiercely and successfully the possible privatisation of water in Scotland. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Opposition are being hypocritical? They like to give it out, but they do not like to get it; it is good to see them getting a dose of their own medicine.
Miss Begg:
I would go further. If the Tory wipe-out in Scotland had happened in 1992 and not in 1997, I am sure that the 1992 Government would have imposed an English Member of Parliament as Secretary of State for Scotland. I have no doubt about that. I shall be interested to see whether any Opposition Member will challenge that. If there had been no Tory Members of Parliament in Scotland after the 1992 election, when the Tories were in power, would they not have imposed an English Member to decide on Scottish affairs? I would have had no problem with that, because, at that time, Scotland was part of the UK Government.
Dr. Godman:
I have listened to my hon. Friend's remarks with a good deal of sympathy, but I disagree profoundly with her as to the continued existenceof the Grand Committees, Question Times and
Miss Begg:
I would not go as far as that, but the situation is developing. There is no doubt that the Scottish Grand Committee has a lesser role, but Scottish questions will continue on subjects that remain the responsibility of the Scottish Office: for example, the oil and gas industry is a reserved matter and, because it is pertinent to my constituency, I shall continue to ask the Secretary of State for Scotland questions about it. However, my argument is that the nature of the Select Committee should change, so that it is not a conventionally constituted Committee of the House, but becomes a liaison Committee and takes on a different, additional role. Whether or not we call the new Committee the Scottish Liaison Committee rather than the Scottish Affairs Committee, it should be able to scrutinise the exercise of those powers that have an impact on Scotland but are reserved to this place.
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