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Mrs. Ellman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
I know that changes will be made to the methodology, to the structure of Committees and Grand Committees and to Question Time, but I repeat this: I am a Welsh Member representing an English constituency and English taxpayers who are paying taxes which are spent in Scotland and in Wales, and my constituents expect me to have the opportunity to question Ministers on how that money is being spent. We cannot have taxation without proper representation; we cannot have taxation without Members of the United Kingdom Parliament asking United Kingdom Ministers how that money is being spent.
We are told that devolution is a journey, not a destination. The pressure will no doubt grow for more powers to go to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. Indeed, the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) has already said that he, as a Westminster Member of Parliament, will push constantly
for more powers to go to both those bodies, but my biggest fear of all--in all this muddled thinking, incoherence and unjoined-up thinking--is that the very integrity of the United Kingdom is at risk.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain):
I was trying to count the number of cliches in the speech of the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans), but I should begin by responding to the other contributions that have been made this evening. First, the hon. Member for Woodspring(Dr. Fox) focused a lot of his criticism on proportional representation. I remind him that proportional representation in Wales gave him Rod Richards; maybe that is why he is so bitterly opposed to it. Proportional representation in Wales gave the Conservatives a lifeline into the Assembly and gave all the minority parties representation that they would not otherwise have achieved and which we believe they should have had.
When the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Luff), in an interesting speech, quoted The Birmingham Post in support of his case for an English parliament, he neglected to say that its top man on the board of directors is the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler). The hon. Gentleman's contribution was interesting--I shall return to this point--because his Front Benchers were notably silent about whether they support his case for an English parliament, preferring to dodge the question.
The right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Mr. Maclennan) made an interesting and thoughtful contribution. He referred to the importance of the English regions, which is a point that many of my hon. Friends who represent English constituencies would have made had they been called to speak. The Government's position on decentralisation of power and devolution of responsibility and decision making throughout Britain is that the English regions should be empowered as well. We have already begun to do that, through the establishment of regional development agencies for all nine regions of England--the statutory power came into force only a month ago.
We have already begun the process of achieving devolved bodies for the English regions by legislating for a Greater London Authority. Elections for the authority and for mayor of London will take place next year and we have already put in place regional chambers representing the nine English regions.
There are already signs--in the north-east, for example--that demand for regional government is building. As has been made clear, and my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) reinforced the point, if and when there is such demand in the English regions, as I hope that there will be, we will be able to
achieve elected regional government--under a Labour Government and after it has been sanctioned in a referendum.
Mr. Brady:
The Minister referred to the possibility of a regional assembly for the north-west and other parts of the country. Does he realise that his message would carry more force if the regional development agency in the north-west were properly representative? After last week's results in the local elections, will he now agree to put a Conservative representative on the RDA in the north-west? It is a scandal that the Government have not done so before and, following last week's very good results for the Conservatives in the north-west, they should now do so.
Mr. Hain:
I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman wants to emulate the experience of the old Welsh Development Agency, which was packed full of Conservative stooges, resulting in all sorts of shenanigans, which that the Labour Government have had to clear up. The answer to the hon. Gentleman's question will be found if--I should say when--Labour is elected at the next election, because there will be the opportunity for his area to have an elected regional government if the people wish it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) made an extremely interesting speech and said that devolution was not about Scottish, Welsh or--for that matter--English nationalism, but about good governance and the modernisation of government. I agree. I agree also with his comments about the House of Commons trying to do too much, and doing it badly. That is an additional reason why we are pressing ahead with the decentralisation of power throughout Britain.
My hon. Friend asked about the reciprocity of access between Members of Parliament with Members of the Scottish Parliament and Members of the Welsh Assembly. That is a good point which ought to be examined by all three bodies. He asked also about overseas territories and whether they should have representation, and he mentioned Gibraltar. I should say that I have enough on my plate with Wales without considering Gibraltar or any other overseas territory.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg), by stark contrast with almost all Conservative Members, made a series of lucid points about the process of devolution upon which we have embarked.
The hon. Member for Rochford and Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) was good enough to remind us of 1979 and his venerable leadership of the Scottish Conservative party. I believe that he was referred to as "the leader of one" and that he subsequently lost his seat in the process. He asked specifically about tuition fees. That is a matter devolved to Scotland. It will be within the rights of the Scottish Parliament to take a different decision on tuition fees, but it then must take the consequences in terms of spending within the Scottish block.
The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) made a series of familiar points--it was like listening to an old gramophone record that we heard during the passage of Government of Wales Act and the Scotland Act. My right
hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has made it clear that, after the transfer order goes through on 1 July, he does not think it appropriate that he should stay in post much longer because the two roles will eventually be incompatible. [Hon. Members: "How much longer?"] My right hon. Friend has answered that question specifically.
The hon. Member for Ribble Valley referred sarcastically to the current discussions between the Labour party and the other parties in the National Assembly. This is the new partnership politics that the Welsh Assembly was invited to project in Wales. It makes a difference from the old confrontational, elitist, centralised and dictatorial politics that we had during 18 years of Tory rule.
The real issue is that neither the hon. Gentleman nor his Tory colleagues can stand the idea of diversity. They do not like the idea that the Scottish Parliament may or may not decide to do something different about tuition fees. They do not like the idea that the Welsh Assembly may introduce free travel for senior citizens--something that does not exist as yet in England or Scotland. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley wants the uniformity that Thatcherism and Majorism thrust on all parts of the UK, to such disastrous effect.
What has characterised the debate is a series of illusions. First, the Conservatives claim to be speaking for England, but they are not. Only 31 per cent. of Members of Parliament in England are Conservative; just 165 out of 528. It is the Labour party that speaks for England. A total of 329 Members of Parliament in England--60 per cent.--are Labour Members.
The Conservatives do not speak for England. They do not speak for anyone but themselves. It is Labour that speaks for England. It is Labour that speaks for Scotland, Wales and indeed the whole of the United Kingdom.
Dr. Fox:
Simply as a matter of interest, if the Labour party speaks for Scotland and Wales, why did it fail to win a majority in either Scotland or Wales last week?
Mr. Hain:
The answer is simple: we designed an electoral system to ensure that the Opposition parties got fairer representation. Labour is by far the biggest party in both Scotland and Wales, but we are proud of introducing a fairer electoral system, which gave a lifeline tothe Scottish Conservative party and to the Welsh Conservatives as well.
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