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5.30 pm
Mr. Ingram: Let me deal first with the point made by the right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire (Sir B. Mawhinney) on open-endedness. I thought that we had debated that. We have no guarantee that what we would like to happen will happen, but the strong probability is that it will, and quickly. I do not want to suggest the likely time scale, because that would build up the hopes of the families, which have been built up so many times before and dashed.
The hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) talked about a recent extensive dig in west Belfast. I did not answer his point, but perhaps I should now. I do not have information on the cost, but if remains had been recovered, the cost would have been worth it for that family and for everyone in Northern Ireland because it would have been a release.
We do not know whether the process will happen, but the probability is that it will, and quickly. I do not want to set a time scale that would terminate it when we might be encouraging information to come forward. I also distinguished between the information that we now have to hand--the nine listed by the IRA--and the five to seven more that may fall in the same category but have not yet been owned up to by any group or individual. We hope that, if the first movement happens, it will encourage others to come forward.
On what the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) asked, the order-making power is similar to that relating to decommissioning and protects those who carry out the actions on behalf of the two Governments. It can involve small, detailed issues relating to liability to income tax. It can relate to members of those persons'
families and give immunities against tort. I could go through the whole of part I of schedule 1 of the International Organisations Act 1968. It is possible that not all of that will be required. We do not envisage an international aspect to the commission. It is likely that there will be two commissioners because we have to act quickly. I announced on Monday the name of the commissioner that the British Government will put forward. I understand that the Irish Government are in the process of identifying theirs. The time scale is determined by getting the business through both Houses. On that basis, I cannot say with certainty when it will be activated because the measure has not yet been passed. We have been telling families, and saying publicly, that it will be in a few weeks.
As I said on Second Reading, I hope that, once the legislation is on the statute book, both here and in the Republic of Ireland, the information will emerge quickly. We are planning for that eventuality. We have also put in place a detailed approach to handling the matter on an inter-agency basis to bring into play all the Departments that may be involved, together with the RUC and the Churches. We anticipate that the Roman Catholic Church will have the main interest. Our detailed and comprehensive approach will mean that everyone is aware of what they have to do so that we can move immediately the information is given.
Mr. Malcolm Moss (North-East Cambridgeshire):
The Minister has said more than once, both on Second Reading and tonight, that there is no guarantee that information will be forthcoming. Could he share with the Committee any indication that he or other Ministers have had from the IRA that, once the legislation is in place, it will move in a short time scale? He mentioned weeks.
Mr. Ingram:
The British Government have had no contact with the IRA on this issue, which has been handled through an intermediary with the Irish Government. I do not want to divulge or discuss what has passed between two sovereign Governments. I have said that we expect this to happen early, but we are not speaking only to those in the Chamber; our words go elsewhere. I do not want to dash the hopes of families. That is why, when I meet them, I will have to say that we cannot control whether the information that they need will emerge. We hope that it will, which is why we have advanced legislation to encourage it. I do not want raise false hopes on their part, but such hopes are more realistic than any for the past 30 years.
If the organisation with the information decides not to bring it forward, I know what statements I will make. I am sure that they would be echoed in the Dail and internationally. It is bad enough that the murders were carried out, but to do that to families would be unforgivable. We are not negotiating in the Committee on this. These are sensitive issues. I am encouraged that we have taken the matter down this road. We hope that what we are trying to achieve will be achieved, but, ultimately, it is not in our hands.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham):
I voted against Second Reading, not without some doubt because I recognised that the Bill is designed to address a sensitive and real concern, namely the anxiety of those who have lost friends and relatives to know where the latter have been buried. That is an understandable human emotion, with which I have the utmost sympathy.
Clause 3 lies at the heart of the Bill. If it is too wide or wrong, the Bill is wrong. Its effect is plain. It will prevent any evidence, other than evidence for the defence, being used or admitted in criminal proceedings resulting from the discovery of the remains or the disclosure of the information. We are giving an amnesty in respect of those who have committed murder in circumstances that are covered by the Bill.
The matter goes perhaps wider than hon. Members fully appreciate. Under clause 3, where a person makes a disclosure that leads to the finding of remains where there is evidence, the evidence, whether from the disclosure or from the remains, is not admissible against the person who made the disclosure. That is clear, but it is also true that the evidence, whether it takes the form of a disclosure or of the remains, is not admissible in other criminal proceedings against third parties who have not themselves been privy to the disclosure. In fact, it goes further than that. The evidence involved in the disclosure or in the remains is not admissible in respect of offences that might be shown not to be related to the discovery of the particular remains. Therefore, if there was evidence arising from the fact of the disclosure or its circumstances, or from the remains, that showed that some third party had committed some other murder--not itself the subject of the disclosure--such evidence would not be admissible either.
I am bound to say that I am very uneasy about the principle of this amnesty--that is what it is--and, furthermore, about the scope of what is being proposed. Of course, I understand that, in the context of the agreement in Northern Ireland, it is highly desirable to make progress. I understand, too, the natural anxiety on the part of friends and relatives of those people who were murdered to know where they were buried--I began with that point. At the same time, we are entitled to assert a public interest and I am far from clear that, in principle, such a public interest should be granted by the Committee. The question is not so much whether that is right in principle--we could hold different views as to that--but whether it is right at present. I wonder whether the terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland, especially the IRA, have done enough to justify the granting of an amnesty of this kind--even assuming that an amnesty should be allowed in principle, if the agreement were making progress. I do not think that that is the case.
I am someone who has supported the Northern Ireland agreement; I have defended the release of prisoners--sometimes against the views of members of my Front Bench; I have accepted that decommissioning was not an explicit condition precedent of the agreement and I have defended that position. However, the point has now been
reached when the House of Commons must stand back and ask how much further progress it is proper to make without substantial movement by the IRA or associated terrorist organisations. No explosives or weapons have been delivered. More than 50 per cent. of the prisoners have been released, but we have seen nothing more substantial than a partial cessation of violence. The time has come to say, "No more", until many more positive steps are taken by the IRA. Until there is substantial decommissioning and a total cessation of violence in Northern Ireland on the part of the terrorist organisations, especially the IRA, we should not push forward the peace process. In particular, we should not push forward the amnesty contained in the measure before us today.
Dr. Godman:
The right hon. and learned Gentleman claims that the clause offers an amnesty to killers. A friend in Northern Ireland suggested to me that that was an unintentional consequence of the clause. The right hon. and learned Gentleman was not present earlier when I said that our overriding concern must be to meet and honour our obligations to the families of the victims.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
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