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The First Deputy Chairman: Order. Perhaps I should remind the hon. Member that we are considering not the Bill in its entirety, just his amendment.
Mr. Ross: If you had just held your hand for a moment, Mr. Martin, you would have realised that I will be staying completely in order. I was simply referring to the absence of a clause that we normally find in Bills that deal with Northern Ireland or a specific region of the United Kingdom. Normally, there is a clause stating that the Bill extends only to Scotland, Northern Ireland or England and Wales. No such clause appears in this Bill and, therefore, this is not a Northern Ireland Bill, but a United Kingdom Bill. Different laws govern inquests throughout the United Kingdom; they are not, as far as I am aware, wholly alike.
I therefore wonder how a clause will operate when, for example, a body is found in Scotland. Allegations were made at one stage that bodies may have been buried in France. We know that the IRA was active on the continent. There could be a body buried in Germany. Suppose some poor fellow is buried in Germany or France, will this proposed law apply there? Does it apply throughout the United Kingdom? Are the Home Secretary and the Secretary of state for Scotland aboard? Are the new Scottish and Welsh governing bodies aboard? There is a very serious question to be asked on the Bill's extent.
Dr. Godman:
I do not believe that the amendment is very appropriate. Unlike the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg), I am not a lawyer, Scottish or English, but I ask my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to confirm that subsection (1) does not in any way restrict the comprehensiveness of a post-mortem or an inquest held in any of our jurisdictions.
The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) is right in one regard. If we are talking about the United Kingdom, we must talk in terms of its different legal systems. Scottish procedures are different from those that pertain in England. I hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will forgive me, but an allegation was made that a body or a couple of bodies might have been buried outwith Northern Ireland--perhaps in Scotland. I received an assurance from my hon. Friend that every means would be sought to co-operate with the Scottish authorities. I simply ask him to place on the record that no attempt will be made to restrict in any way the holding
of an inquest, or an examination carried out by a pathologist. I believe that subsection (1) confirms that that will be the case.
Mr. Öpik:
It seems to me that the result of the amendment, with the consequent prohibition on testing, would be that any inquest would be kept open due to lack of evidence. I look to the Minister for guidance on that, but, having listened to what the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) has said, I believe that the amendment would lead to an outcome rather different from that which he intends.
Mr. McFall:
I shall focus on amendment No. 2, and then perhaps any other points can be taken up in the stand part debate.
My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman) asked about the situation in Scotland. That is linked to the point that the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) raised when he asked what would happen if a body was found in Germany. If a body is found in Scotland or England, clause 4 will apply, but if it is found in Germany, it will not apply.
My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde can see that clause 4(1) provides that there would be restrictions on the actions of people other than the coroner at the inquest, but that subsection (2) contains a qualification to or exemption from that restriction at the inquest .
I believe that at Second Reading we made things reasonably clear when we said that there would be a full examination as to how, when and where the person died and that it would be a public matter, so there would be no inhibition. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde will accept that point.
The amendment would mean that forensic testing, as part of the inquest process, would have to stop at identifying the person. That is a limitation that the hon. Member for East Londonderry is introducing. In other words, he is negating the effect of subsection (2). As a result, tests to establish how the person died and where that happened would not be possible. I do not consider that that would be in the interests of the families, as a coroner has an important role to play with the families by providing reassurance. I know from meetings and contacts that I have had with several coroners in Northern Ireland that the emphasis is placed on the family concerned. I therefore believe that the amendment would place a limitation on their work, and I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider that.
I can assure the hon. Member for East Londonderry that the Bill does nothing to affect a normal inquest process. As I said, that is the aim of subsection (2). If the amendment were made, the circumstances in which a person died would not be discovered by forensic testing, and that would be unacceptable for the families. I assume that the hon. Member for East Londonderry is seeking an assurance from the Government that the Bill does nothing to prevent an inquest from taking its usual course. I can unequivocally provide him with that assurance, if that is what he wants.
Mr. William Ross:
In light of the Minister's assurance, and in the hope that we may return to the subject, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Hogg:
I am sorry to return to the matter that I have already ventilated, but the Minister did say that the points that I raised on clause 3 stand part might be discussed properly--and perhaps even more relevantly--on clause 4 stand part, so I will trouble the Committee on the matter.
We must return to clause 3. As the Committee knows, I am--broadly speaking--against the amnesty, for that is what the Bill provides. We have already had this exchange, but whether it is an amnesty or not, clause 3(2) provides for a relaxation in its application. I agree with that purpose. It is obviously right that an accused person should be able to use forensic material discovered from the remains, or associated with them, for the purpose of his or her defence. So far, so good.
The problem is that there is nothing in the Bill that enables an accused person to obtain from a court an order--
Mr. Hogg:
The Minister is agreeing with me. There is nothing in the Bill that enables an accused person to obtain from the court an order which enables that accused person to have the relevant material subjected to forensic testing. Indeed, clause 4 prohibits that very act.
As a result, an accused person who believes that, within the remains or associated with the remains, there is forensic evidence that will avail the defence, will be unable to subject the relevant material to forensic testing. That being so, the right conferred by clause 3(2) is nugatory. We have given people a right that they cannot enforce. That is dotty.
Unless I have misunderstood the position, the proper way to proceed is to enlarge the disapplying provision contained in clause 4(2), because at present the ability to carry out tests is confined to the coroner within the inquest. We could very well enlarge subsection (2) so that a test may be carried out on the authority of a court, making an order on the application of an accused person.
I am not asking the Minister to give an undertaking here and now--of course he will not do so--but I am asking him to reflect on my suggestion with a view to tabling amendments in another place if he agrees with me.
The matter actually goes a little further than that which I have suggested. I believe that the logic of what I have suggested with regard to an accused person is impeccable, but another situation might arise. A person who is an appellant, or who is seeking a review of a case, may believe that the forensic evidence associated with the remains would enable him or her to get a previous conviction quashed, either by a reference to the Court of Appeal or by some form of review. I should like to think that the Minister would agree to enable an appellant--and therefore, as the case is concluded, probably not an accused person for the purposes of the Bill--to go to a court, probably the Court of Appeal, for an order allowing the forensic material to be the subject of testing.
That is my suggestion. I do not expect the Minister to say yea or nay now. That would be an absurd proposition, as the point is complicated. However, I hope and expect that he will reflect on the matter and, if he sees substance in my argument, that he will move an amendment on another occasion and probably in another place.
Rev. Martin Smyth:
I appreciate the opportunity to seek further clarification. The right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) was concerned about protection for the accused. I am looking at the other side of the matter.
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