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12 noon
Mr. Maclean: I apologise for the slightly late intervention, but I received a note from the French Ministry of Agriculture yesterday, which pointed out that the rabbit Orylag--the Rex rabbit--is found extensively in France because the fur is more valuable than the meat. The whole carcase is used--60 per cent. of the value is in the fur and 40 per cent. in the meat at the moment. Such farming is an alternative rural industry. The product is popular as farmers diversify. Sometimes the meat and sometimes the fur is more valuable. Therefore, there is a danger in the provision.
Mr. Forth: I hope that my right hon. Friend will share that note with me later, as the matter will become highly germane when we discuss the schedule of species. My right hon. Friend has made the problem even worse. He is talking about French and not merely British seduction. We are now into international territory. How could I possibly doubt that what he says is correct? I can see from here that he has a document in front of him and I bet that it is in French, so I may be prepared to give a loose translation to the House if the need arises, but not yet.
Now that we have flushed out the rabbits, there seems to be a distinct possibility that, given the value of rabbit pelts and the doubt that exists about the relative value of pelt versus meat--we know how much the French like their lapins--there is sufficient doubt about this part of the Bill for us to be worried. When the hon. Member for Garston replies to this short debate, which need not be too long as we have much more important matters to discuss--
Mr. Paterson:
Does my right hon. Friend understand that there is a clear link if a fur trader in London gives an
Mr. Forth:
All that this debate has proved is that the less I say on the subject the better. My hon. Friend knows infinitely more about it than I can ever hope to know. I am anxious to get on to some of the meatier aspects of the debate--I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border got that, as no one else did. This is an important matter, but I do not want to delay the House on it. I simply wanted to set the scene and to tantalise my hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson), as I think I have. I will leave it at that.
To be truthful, I want to hear what the hon. Member for Garston has to say on the subject. The Minister may be tempted to his feet, although he is in a slightly churlish mood. However, he may be tempted to join us, to bring some joy to the debate and to help us out. With that, I am happy to move the amendment.
Maria Eagle:
I am happy to try to reassure the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) about the permitting offence, if I may call it that. Both amendments would remove the permitting offences from the Bill. I am concerned that if those amendments are made, they will create anomalies that will, in effect, enable anyone who is fur farming in this country to structure his or her business to escape the provisions of the Bill.
As the Bill is drafted, the offence can be committed by a company or by a person. The person with the controlling interest in one of the businesses might, for example, cause or permit a member of his family to do the fur farming, which would be the only remaining offence if the amendment were accepted. That is certainly the structure of one or two existing businesses. Perhaps an owner of a business might employ someone to run the fur farm. If the amendments were agreed, the person who had been employed to run the farm could be prosecuted, but not the person who owned the business and was employing that person to do so. That would leave an unacceptable loophole.
The land and buildings on a farm might be not owned by the person operating the farm, but rented to him by an ex-fur farmer. If the Bill's aim is to ban fur farming, it is not appropriate to introduce loopholes that would allow it to continue as a result of not prosecuting people for the offence if they are not directly involved, but are causing or permitting it. The Bill is drafted to avoid easy loopholes. I know that the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst disapproves of making such activity criminal, but if we are to have this legislation on the statute book, the last thing that we want is an easy loophole to enable people to flout the law.
I am not as concerned as the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst about the extent to which the provision may catch others who have some link with
the fur business, such as shoppers, neighbours and retailers. That is because one must knowingly cause or permit another person or company to establish and run a fur farm in this country before one is caught by the provision. It will not catch people who wander into a shop and buy a fur coat, or those in the London markets who buy fur from various sources, because they are not knowingly causing or permitting someone to commit a criminal offence.
I understand that the right hon. Gentleman does not want the offences created by the Bill to extend beyond what is intended, but I do not believe that the Bill as currently drafted does that. If his amendments were accepted, they would create a massive loophole which would prevent the Bill's main purpose from being implemented. I resist his amendments.
Mr. Maclean:
I listened carefully to what the hon. Lady said, and agreed with some of it. I am not convinced about "causes". I accept the explanation of "permits". The provision does not extend to anyone who buys a fur coat, although that is the end of the chain. The fact that people wander into shops in London to buy fur coats is the reason why farmers in Holland, Denmark and America will keep mink. They do it for the benefit of no one but the consumer. Even on the most far-fetched legal interpretation, the consumer who buys the product, and thereby causes the farming to take place, does not legally cause it. Even my meagre law training 30 years ago tells me that.
I am not so sure about the international fur trade, the big London market and people in this country legitimately involved in the fur trade. The problem is that London accounts for 60 per cent. of the world fur market. It is huge and there are no plans to ban it. The world is going to continue producing furs. It will remain legal and legitimate, although many do not like it, except for farmers in Scotland, England and Wales who breed animals to supply the legal trade.
We do not have to look at Denmark. The danger is that someone heavily involved in the business will look at Northern Ireland. Nothing is being farmed there, but if I was a fur farmer in this country, I would be tempted to take whatever compensation the Government offer and set up business there because it is not covered by the Bill.
A fur trader in this country might say to someone who is operating a business in Northern Ireland, "If you go into fur farming, I can get you a contract for 50,000 pelts a year. I am involved in the business; I will buy your supplies, if you go into business in Northern Ireland." That point is not far fetched, because Ministries of Agriculture are encouraging farm diversification schemes. I think that in this country, MAFF used to encourage a scheme for farmed rabbit meat. I am not sure if there is a subsidy, but we certainly have a farmed rabbit industry. I remember having to deal with the problems of Chinese viral haemorrhagic disease or something like that. That industry exists to farm animals for meat.
I have received a note from the diversification and marketing department of the French Agriculture Ministry encouraging people to stock a certain breed of rabbit--the Rex Orylag. When that rabbit is sold normally, the meat is worth 40 per cent., but the fur is worth 60 per cent.--depending on the market at the time. Currently, it could be perfectly legitimate for farmers to diversify into
rabbit farming in Northern Ireland, because some guy in this country could tell them that if they did so, he would take all the fur that they produced. That person would be encouraging someone else to produce fur, although he might not be causing the other person to do it.
Maria Eagle:
Perhaps I did not express myself sufficiently clearly earlier. I reassure the right hon. Gentleman that the Bill applies to Great Britain. The primary offence is keeping mink, or any fur-bearing animal, solely or primarily for its fur, within the jurisdiction of Great Britain. In relation to the people for whom the right hon. Gentleman expresses concern, if the secondary offence were to come within the ambit of the Bill, those people would have knowingly to cause fur farming of some description to go on within Great Britain, otherwise no offence would be committed. We are not legislating for the rest of Europe; if the Bill proceeds, the House will legislate for Great Britain--not Northern Ireland. People would have knowingly to cause or permit an illegal activity to take place in Great Britain to fall under the ambit of the Bill. That deals with most of the points made by Conservative Members.
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